This episode originally aired on March 1, 2023.
The gender pay gap is a calculation that reflects the fact that, on average, women are paid less than men. In 2020, that was 83 cents to every dollar. Women of Color, per usual, get an even smaller piece of the pie. Black women were paid 64%, and Hispanic women (of any race) were paid 57% of what white non-Hispanic men were paid (according to a study conducted by the Women’s Bureau in tandem with the U.S. Census Bureau).
What’s worse is that the majority of the gap between men and women’s wages cannot be explained through measurable differences!
This isn't just about numbers and policies; it's about the voices that often go unheard. Jessica and Brandon are shining a spotlight on the double-edged sword faced by women of color, mothers, and those re-entering the workforce.
Tune in as they dissect the paradoxical undervaluing of women in the workforce, even when they bring identical qualifications and experience to the table.
If you’d like to leave us a question to be answered during future episodes, you can do so at Speakpipe.
You can email us at: thesugardaddypodcast@gmail.com
Be sure to connect with us on Instagram
Learn more about Brandon, and Oak City Financial
Please remember to subscribe, rate, review and share this episode.
This episode originally aired on March 1, 2023.
The gender pay gap is a calculation that reflects the fact that, on average, women are paid less than men. In 2020, that was 83 cents to every dollar. Women of Color, per usual, get an even smaller piece of the pie. Black women were paid 64%, and Hispanic women (of any race) were paid 57% of what white non-Hispanic men were paid (according to a study conducted by the Women’s Bureau in tandem with the U.S. Census Bureau).
What’s worse is that the majority of the gap between men and women’s wages cannot be explained through measurable differences!
This isn't just about numbers and policies; it's about the voices that often go unheard. Jessica and Brandon are shining a spotlight on the double-edged sword faced by women of color, mothers, and those re-entering the workforce.
Tune in as they dissect the paradoxical undervaluing of women in the workforce, even when they bring identical qualifications and experience to the table.
If you’d like to leave us a question to be answered during future episodes, you can do so at Speakpipe.
You can email us at: thesugardaddypodcast@gmail.com
Be sure to connect with us on Instagram
Learn more about Brandon, and Oak City Financial
Please remember to subscribe, rate, review and share this episode.
I think a big part of that is also we have to address the fragility of males.
Speaker 2:Oh yeah.
Speaker 1:Because men, a lot of men, base their identity and their ability to provide financially for their family. So I think that also plays into the notion of making sure that I maintain that role at the detriment of making sure that women don't achieve that role.
Speaker 2:Hey everyone, welcome to the Sugar Daddy podcast. I'm Jessica.
Speaker 1:And I'm Brandon.
Speaker 2:And we're the Norwoods, a husband and wife team here to demystify the realm of dollars. So it all makes sense, while giving you a glimpse into our relationship with money and each other. We are so glad you're here. Let's get started.
Speaker 1:Our content is intended to be used, and must be used, for informational purposes only. It is very important to do your own analysis before making any investment based upon your own personal circumstances. You should take independent financial advice from a licensed professional in connection with, or independently research and verify any information you find in our podcast and wish to rely upon with it for the purpose of making an investment decision or otherwise. Hey babe, what are we talking about today?
Speaker 2:Today we are going to talk about the gender pay gap and why women are paid less.
Speaker 1:Yes, that is a very important topic. We are recording this for March, which has International Women's Day. On March 8th which is your birthday?
Speaker 2:Yes, Lots of things to celebrate.
Speaker 1:And so this month's podcasts are dedicated to addressing issues that mainly affect women in regards to corporate America, but then also fall into, obviously, the financial realm.
Speaker 2:Yes, I think we should have Beyonce or Lizzo or something playing in the background. Let's get in formation. So why are women paid less? It's a big topic and we want to start with the gender pay gap because we are going to feed into some other topics for the remainder of the month, like how to negotiate for a better salary, how to start up your side hustle and make more money, what to look for, maybe when it comes to looking for a job and a company that is paying attention to pay parity and pay equity and supporting women.
Speaker 1:So lots of stuff, and also how to have the confidence of the male counterpart, who is not as good as you are.
Speaker 2:Yes, so I always channel. I'm not going to say the name, but if you know me, you know the name. But you need to channel your inner.
Speaker 1:We're just going to say it you need to channel your inner mediocre white man.
Speaker 2:Yeah, go ahead and do that. Channel your inner mediocre white man, because they seem to have the most amount of confidence in the entire world, even when a lot of times it's not warranted. Also, if you're listening and you are a white man and you're not a mediocre white man, you shouldn't be offended by that statement.
Speaker 1:If you're offended by it, then that might be on you.
Speaker 2:So anyway, let's get into it. I think it's important to start off with some data. This is going to include a lot of information. We'll be sure to link all of the sources that we're referencing in our show notes, but we're now in 2023. It takes a long time to gather this kind of information and this type of data, but in 2020, according to the US Census, for every dollar that a man made, a woman earned 83 cents. So in 2020, women were making 17 cents less per dollar for the same job, simply for being a woman.
Speaker 2:Now, if you don't live, under a rock you know that that number and that gap widens if you are a woman of color and as I was doing research for this episode and we'll get into it a little bit further down the episode is understanding that if you are a parent and a woman, you are a woman Even worse off.
Speaker 2:So, simply being a woman is already putting you behind, and if you choose to have children, you are even further behind than just being a woman. So it's a double whammy, which is really quite crazy, but we're going to get into. Why Do you have something to add there? No, okay, felt like you made a face. So one of the other things we need to talk about is that pay equity, pay disparity. It looks different around the world, so that 83 cents on the dollar in 2020 for women, that was for the United States, but there are some countries that are doing a little bit better than we are in the United States. There's also countries that are doing a little bit worse. So, within the last four years, poland women in Poland were making 91 cents on the dollar. Women in Iceland were making 90 cents on the dollar, so not too shabby. I actually lived in Poland for a couple of months back in 2016, I believe. Let me tell you, everybody in Poland is an engineer.
Speaker 1:Some sort of engineer. You would ask somebody that you just met oh, what do you do?
Speaker 2:Everybody is some sort of engineer.
Speaker 1:There's a lot of smart people there. Yeah, that is true. So, they might be working a different job, but they were at some point in time maybe an engineer.
Speaker 2:They were some sort of engineer. Welcome to Poland. In Israel, women are making 81 cents on the dollar, and in Korea you're looking at 65 cents on the dollar. So there's this whole question of equal pay for equal work, but the research shows that that is not happening. It doesn't matter if you're doing the same job, same title, with the same type of education, same years of experience. The pay is simply not equal.
Speaker 1:Yeah, we were talking about. On paper, you would not be able to tell the difference between two individuals based upon their qualifications, experience of that nature, just what happens to be a male and what happens to be a female, and that's the sole basis of the pay disparity.
Speaker 2:Exactly when everything else is the same except for the gender, yeah, yeah it's really disappointing. So let's go back. Side note, I saw this like TikTok the other day, where this girl was putting on this like headband. Ladies, if you're listening, you know the spiky headband of death. That was like a full circle and you had to put it over your head and then like shove it back into your hair and it would give you like these little triangles. You know what I'm talking about?
Speaker 1:I think I'm talking about. Obviously I didn't wear one.
Speaker 2:We all use them. They were terrible to put on. I just remember like stabbing my neck, stabbing my eyes, stabbing my forehead to get this contraption into my curly hair. Anyways, the point is, the girl on the TikTok was like what time period is this from? And of course all of my girlfriends sent it to me. I sent it to all of my girlfriends. It's just been like circulating, because she had the audacity to ask what time period that was from and I wanted to be like girl that was mid 90s.
Speaker 2:Like what are we doing? Time period, okay, so where we're going? We're going back into the 50s and 60s.
Speaker 1:I was wondering where you were going. Yeah, I'm sorry.
Speaker 2:I just thought you know it was very triggering, like what time period is this from? Like how rude. So in the 50s and 60s most women mainly white women didn't work outside of the home and weren't as educated as men. History will prove that brown women have always been working, yeah.
Speaker 1:Unfortunately that was the case because you know, even during the time period, the families that could afford, you know, help with their children. They were hiring black women to raise their kids.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 1:Not good enough or able to drink from the same water fountain, but we're able to raise my kids.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's a whole nother episode. So we're the 50s and 60s. Women were mainly working inside of the home, which also just meant that they had lower education rates. They obviously were not participating in the workforce as much, and that was a time period where discrimination for jobs was actually legal Right. So you would have the paper saying hey, we're looking for feminine you know feminine job roles, like if you're going to be a secretary, if you're going to be a line worker.
Speaker 1:Yeah, blatantly just say this is a job for only women to apply to, this is a job for only men to apply to, and that was perfectly legal.
Speaker 2:Yes, exactly. And you know what? Those women then were being paid less for the job, until maybe a man decided oh, I can do this job too, and then guess what? The pay would go up.
Speaker 1:And this isn't long ago 50s and 60s. You know, our parents were born like. My mom was born in 57.
Speaker 2:Exactly, exactly. So you know, all of the research shows that this type of pay gap is really systemic and that it comes from the conscious and unconscious right. Some things were done on purpose and some things were done maybe subconsciously, like oh, this is a woman's job because women are not inept enough to do X, y and Z, which we all know is completely ridiculous.
Speaker 1:It's very interesting to me because even with that thought process of you know, maybe that's just the way it's always been and it's not necessarily being done, you know, in a mean manner.
Speaker 1:Right Like it's just weird to me because if you really just dive really deep into actual history, women have really outside of, like you know, quote unquote workforce have really done a lot of the same things that men have done to progress, just society forward. So it's really it's just, it's just odd, you know, with women, for example, like with women and you know, in finance, not having as big a role in finance as a broad overview of, like you know, the country per se, but in a household women have been managing the money for centuries I mean, I mean for decades where even though, even when they were centuries, even when they were homemakers and women, you know, mainly didn't work.
Speaker 1:I mean, I can, I can talk to my you know friends and their grandparents and the wife or mother was still managing all the finances in the house. The man was making the money per se, but the woman wasn't managing it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, absolutely. I mean, that's how I grew up. My my mom worked here and there growing up. She was always home when we came home from school. But you know, I guess societally my dad made the money, he was the breadwinner and my mom controlled the money, so she controlled the budget and where that money went.
Speaker 1:So that's why it's always so like weird to me that the notion that women cannot do the same thing as a man can do Right From an intellectual standpoint.
Speaker 2:Well, and I think that goes straight into our next point, which is women are made to raise children. They're foot in pregnant in the kitchen cooking a meal, right, like that's the. That was the thing in the fifties and sixties. It's like you give me my children, you stay home, I go to work, and then that disparity just keeps growing and growing because you're not getting the education, you're not getting the experience and women are seen as maternal right. So there was a study done in 2018 where Americans were asked if men or women should be working full time, and 70% of Americans in 2018 thought that men should work full time and support their families 70%. Now, I didn't get into the details. I wonder how many of the 70% were actually women agreeing that with that, because we all know people vote against their own best interest all the time.
Speaker 2:So I wonder what the percentages of women that are actually like yeah, women should stay home, women, women should raise their families. I am not one of those women, but would be interesting to know.
Speaker 1:I also believe, like what might have been the same study of maybe a different one, where they flipped the question and asked women are just people. In general, how many people believe that once a woman becomes a mother, she should work full time? And I think it was only like 20%.
Speaker 2:Right, something ridiculous.
Speaker 1:So 80% of the you know those people that were you know, pulled for that question thought that once you are a mother, you should not be working.
Speaker 2:That is so wild Listen.
Speaker 1:And this is not, by any means, this is not a shot at women who are staying at home, moms and choose to be because I can say that is the hardest job there is. That is the hardest job there is. I could not imagine staying home with my kids all the time. I love them to death, but I am not meant to be a staying home dad with them.
Speaker 2:I'm also not meant to be a staying home mom. Christmas proved that.
Speaker 1:So this is not a shot at staying home, moms, because it's literally the hardest job there is.
Speaker 2:And you know what? One of the things that I started doing when meeting new women is asking them do you work outside of the home? Because simply asking do?
Speaker 1:you work is really an insult.
Speaker 2:If you're a mom, you work.
Speaker 1:I never even thought about that. That is very true.
Speaker 2:So, and I know now, you know like I work from home. So if somebody said, do you work outside of the home? I would say yes, but I work from home. But I think women appreciate that because it is the hardest job.
Speaker 1:And I even have a, you know a process where, if the mother or in general, nowadays also If one of the partners is a stay at home parent, then we can actually, you know, essentially put a dollar. I don't think you can really put a full dollar amount to it because it's a 24 seven job, but you can put a dollar amount to it if that person was to prematurely pass away, and how you would have to. How much you have to pay to replace what it is they do.
Speaker 2:Oh my gosh, millions of dollars.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I'll say it's a lot.
Speaker 2:I mean just child care alone. Right. Think about just child care alone, not the housekeeping, not the running of errands, not the laundry, not the cleaning, not the millions of other things.
Speaker 1:Yeah, we have several friends. We have friends that are you know, we have friends that are stay at home moms and I don't know how they do it. I don't know how they have the patience to do it.
Speaker 2:They are saints with a special spot in heaven. Well, on average, women spend nine hours more a week on housework and child related tasks than men, which equates to three months of work over the course of a year, like three months of total work.
Speaker 1:And this is when a while correct me if I'm wrong, but this is also when a woman is still working full time. Correct. So even though the woman is working full time, she is still doing a substantial larger amount of the household work.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's invisible hours, what they're called, right, All the things that need to be done after you're done working.
Speaker 1:Yeah prior to women, you know, working outside the home. You know, obviously it was a little bit more seen that they would do these things. But once you are working outside the home, and nowadays often even bringing, you're bringing in more money than your male counterpart, your counterpart. Yeah, like women are the breadwinners, yeah and you're still doing more of the housework.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:On average.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and you know, I think that just speaks to the capabilities of women and all the things that we do and that we should be making dollar for dollar what a man makes no exceptions.
Speaker 1:It's crazy to me because I think one of the issues that lies in that obviously it's a huge issue that men need to be proactive in addressing. We need to be an ally in addressing this. But I also think it's very weird when you have these polls where you have too large a demographic of women who agree with this negative sentiment that women shouldn't make as much, which is this baffling to me. I don't know any women personally that feel that way, because that's just not who we associate with, but they're unfortunately too large a group of women that are hurting themselves.
Speaker 2:I don't know in what world I would ever wake up and be like, yeah, I should definitely make less than a man. I have no idea Like oh my, if I ever say anything like that, anybody listening. If you hear me say anything like that, I need to be checked.
Speaker 1:You're not just somebody, you're a clone. I think it has invaded my body.
Speaker 2:Exactly.
Speaker 1:I guess for me it's hard only because, like I've never, most of the females in my family growing up have always been, I would say, a more dominant female, like I don't have passive women in my family, no, none of them, right From my grandmother to, especially, my mother. So it's you know, the idea that is foreign to me. Yeah Well obviously my wife.
Speaker 2:Hey, I'm Jessica. Um, well, so I think this all speaks to you. Know the fact that society still very much sees women as maternal right, like even think about the women who choose not to have children and the scoffs that they get, like oh my gosh, you don't want to be a mother and all these things are. It's like leave me alone, let me live my life Like we have two children that we love and adore, but we also totally understand why people would choose not to have children.
Speaker 1:Oh yeah, I could tell you there's a lot of reasons. The quickest way to retire early. Don't have children.
Speaker 2:Exactly Um. So we also need to keep in mind that then, when women do choose to have children and then they temporarily leave the workforce to take care of those children for whatever amount of time, the time that they take is negatively impacting their salary when they return.
Speaker 1:And this was the biggest like eye-opener to me, because I tried to be as aware as possible and listen on these issues and, it's very obvious, wanted to say it to you, but it wasn't something that I just thought about. I was like there is obviously a gender pay gap, but then there's also a mother pay gap, a parent pay gap for women, which would just, you know, eye-opening.
Speaker 2:So A there are three times as many single moms as there are single dads. So that means again that the caregiving responsibility is on women, which also means that if you are a working woman, typically in most scenarios you hear that the mom is the one having to leave the job to take the kid to the doctor's appointments, or to take the kid home when they're sick, or to take time off to the chaperone, a field trip, etc. Etc.
Speaker 1:And they're also. It's like they're almost expected to, because even in our scenario, where I have more flexibility than Jess does when it comes to being able to, you know, go pick up the kids if need be, even though I put my name, my phone number or whatever it may be, as the first contact we have, they have numerous times called Jess first and we had to tell them again call me, and if you can't reach me, then call Jess.
Speaker 2:So, again, societal standard is the mom called the mom, default to mom at all times. And I will say I mean what? The last five doctor's appointments, if I'm just like thinking of routine, you know checkups, some vaccinations, etc. Brandon has taken the kids right. So this scenario does not necessarily apply to us because we don't uphold that stereotypical man versus woman in the home scenario. That's never what I was looking for, that's never what Brandon signed up for, and I think you know, now that we have two small children, we are not automatically forcing our daughter into hey, you need to be maternal, you need to play with dolls. And Roman, our son, sees daddy unloading the dishwasher and folding the laundry and vacuuming. Right, we do it all together and our children see us doing all the things and not. We're not being boxed into these roles, which I think is really important.
Speaker 1:Yeah, never. I never wanted to be in a relationship where your worth within the relationship is based upon some stereotypical gender role right For like the money that you were given, which is for men, and then like, even on the opposite side, like I think that's an issue for both males and females that when you box yourself into those you know very specific roles and if those roles don't pan out the way that you want to, it starts to cause issues within the relationship itself.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's a whole. That's a whole another episode.
Speaker 1:Happy to chat with you, like I just make more money than I do and I have no issues with it. And if she continues making more and the gap even wide, widens even further, I have no issues.
Speaker 2:That's our money Because at the end of the day, it's you know yes, well, so all of that to say, women are seen as the caregivers. Women are the ones that you know have the children, so then they have to step away, even if they only step away for a few weeks. Leaving the job often is seen as you're not dedicated.
Speaker 2:You're not giving it your all, you're not interested in advancement, you're not this, you're not that right. It's like you see the memes and the comments and the gifts about like women coming back to work and the male co-worker being like how was your vacation? Anybody's had a child. That is the furthest thing you will ever do from having a vacation.
Speaker 2:Yeah, maternity leave is not a vacation and you know maternity leave now, If you ever come up to me, not that I'm having any more children, but if you, if anybody, would have asked me how my vacation was after being sliced open to have my children come on that deserves a face punch Unbelievable that people have the audacity to say things like that.
Speaker 2:Well, the bottom line is that when you do leave for any type of reason so this could be because you became a parent, because you're taking care of a parent, because of an illness anytime that you're stepping away from the workforce, when you come back you will be paid less. That gap is going to affect your pay. The gap widens the longer you've been gone. So if you were out of the workforce for more than 24 months so two years your gap now is at 70 cents on the dollar compared to somebody who did not leave the workforce.
Speaker 1:And the thing is, too, is that once that gap occurs, there really is no way to lessen it at this moment in time.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 1:Because it's not as though, it's not as though that you know the individual, the male who's you know further along. Quote, unquote is going to stop.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 1:They're going to keep progressing as well. So that gap is going to remain, if not maybe even widen a little bit more, because even though you have that initial time period where a woman may be out of the workforce, it's not as if there's going to be other things that don't occur through the course of, you know, children growing up.
Speaker 2:Right? Well, I thought this was interesting too. So if you're actively seeking a job for 18 to 24 months, the controlled gender pay gap is 95 cents for every dollar earned by a man within the same employment, within the same employment characteristics. So same field, same job, same title. The gap also exists for men who take time off in the United States, which I'm not surprised about, but of course the gap is less.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:So if you are a male taking paternity leave and you, that is considered a gap in your employment, as in maybe you actually stepped away from that job and you're not returning to that job and then you're seeking new employment. It is actually going to affect men, just not as much as it affects women.
Speaker 1:I mean, I could even see in the scenarios where, say, that a father has to step away from work, whatever it may be, and like, oh you know, I have to go pick my kids up for this, or whatever it may be, I can honestly see a male, you know being praised for that. Yes, 100%. First, that's where we're going to get to that, but then I can also see it as a possible like oh you know, this is not going to be a normal thing, you're just, you're just trying to help out your wife.
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, the silver one is great dad yeah. Going to do his part Because.
Speaker 1:I don't like. I very much do not like when someone says, oh, you're babysitting. I'm like no, I, these are my children, I'm being a father, that's it.
Speaker 2:We just don't hang out with people that say stupid stuff like that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, like I mean dad's, we get it easy when it comes to that. Like you know, you do 1% and people think you're amazing. And the other, you know the women are expected to do the 99 other 99% and don't, and that's just expected. Don't get any extra praise for it, Right?
Speaker 2:Which is fine. I didn't become a parent to get any kind of praise, but why are men being praised for? Doing like the bare minimum of keeping their child alive and or maybe fed in a two hour window was right? Yeah, just for the guys. Well, the good news is that, even though it's hard to close the wage gap, it is not impossible, and there are two countries that have actually almost closed their wage gap in a matter of few decades, and those countries are Iceland and Rwanda.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think a lot of people will be surprised that Rwanda is in there because it is a third world country, but they somehow found a way to close that wage gap.
Speaker 2:Well, I'll tell you how so in 1994, when the Rwandan genocide happened and 800,000 people were brutally murdered within a three month period.
Speaker 1:The population that was remaining, which was 60 to 70% women literally had to rebuild the country.
Speaker 2:So that's when a they were outnumbering the men significantly, almost twice in many but they had to get the country back up on his feet, and so today, 61% of seats in parliament in Rwanda are held by women, 88% of the labor participation rate is women, and the World Economic Forum puts Rwandan, the Rwandan pay gap, at 86 cents on the dollar. So there's still a gap, but it's not terrible All things considered.
Speaker 1:It's just to consider that you're comparing a third world country to, you know, united States, which you know takes us to a certain great assault. They believe, we believe, where the greatest country there is.
Speaker 2:Right, right, well, and so when you center women, we know this right. Even public companies, public companies that have more senior leadership in women, have more diversity, have more diverse women leadership, perform better. Right, it's, it's fact over fact, it's not an opinion. Women help change the world. Women help change business. All for the positive.
Speaker 1:It's also just like if you look at the percentage of parliament, that is, positions that are held by women. It's a reflection of the actual population itself. Because the purpose of government is to show a reflection of the people that it is quote unquote governing. So if you have a population that's, you know, 60% of women, you should have roughly around 60% of your government be women.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:You know, in the United States there are women outnumber men.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:Slightly outnumber men, but in government it is substantially overwhelmingly men. Very, very small percentage women.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I really just don't need any man telling me what to do Ever.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I know I don't really I don't know. That's one thing I don't do. I don't tell just what to do.
Speaker 2:Well, so these numbers are from 2018. So again, we're a little bit removed, but it takes a long time to gather this type of information. So maybe that 86, well, was it 86 cents on the dollar?
Speaker 1:Mm-hmm.
Speaker 2:Hopefully that is.
Speaker 1:Has increased, some has increased, so the gap is lessened Right.
Speaker 2:The other country is Iceland and it's because in 1975, there was a huge labor force strike for women who were protesting, essentially the pay gap.
Speaker 1:Yeah, they simply walked out of their jobs.
Speaker 2:They were like we're not doing this for less than that.
Speaker 1:Collectively as a group.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so there's power in numbers ladies, let's remember that. So that was in 1975. And then in 1980, after that strike, five years later, they elected their first woman president, which is like mind blowing.
Speaker 1:In 1981, they was at the first woman president in the world in the world. So it wasn't just in Iceland, it was in the world Sorry, yes, in the world.
Speaker 2:In 1981, they changed their maternity leave policy from three months of paid leave and extended it to six months. But then they realized that that actually reinforces that whole notion of women are caregivers and men are not. And so in 1988, they talked about changing that paternity leave policy, which changed in the year 2000 to include men, so now men have the same paternity leave as women and they have a use it or lose it model.
Speaker 2:So if you don't use it, you literally are wasting it, which essentially forces men to take it, which has been proven really good in their society. Because the men take their paternity leave so that gives them time to step away, bond with their child, understand how hard it is to be home with a child, while the woman, potentially, can go back to work and not have as great of a gap. So again, in 2018, in Iceland, women were making 90 cents to every dollar a man makes. Would be curious to see if anybody has this information just handy dandy in their pocket. But no, but I'm sticking with the 90 cents to every dollar and if that number has gone up in the last couple of years, then kudos to them for helping close the gap. But I think again, when you're showing that the workforce cannot survive without women, it cannot thrive without women, and policy change is made in support of women, that's the only way we're going to close the gap. It's a collective effort, it's not a woman's problem.
Speaker 1:Right, and I would even say from my experience personally, if you have ever worked somewhere and you have had, you know, colleagues that you consider not to be the best. Workers are lazy, they're not necessarily working the hardest, pretty much 10 times out of 10. It's a guy. I can't think of any female colleagues that I've ever had where that they were that person. It's often the guys. So to think that a woman cannot do the same job, if not better, it's just, it's ridiculous, it's ridiculous.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it really is and it's. You know. It's a family planning issue If you do want to have a family, but it's also going to take the people who are choosing not to have families to ensure that everybody is paid equally for the same for the same job. There's a whole study that comes out every year. It's a great read. I highly recommend it. We'll be sure to link it in the notes. It's in 2022.
Speaker 2:It was in its eighth production, but it's the Women in the Workplace by McKenzie and Company in partnership with Lean In, and it's a 62 page report, so you're gonna have to do some reading. But it's always really interesting because it focuses on women in the workplace, the things that we face, what we're going through. There's also obviously an aspect of minority women, women with disabilities, how all of us are affected in different ways. And, again, unless you've been living under a rock, you know that it takes a lot for women to rise up in leadership. It takes even more if you're a woman of color. We know that most of the positions and leadership are held by men. We know that men get promoted more quickly than women. I mean, there's all these things that go into women progressing, but then also the gender pay gap as a whole.
Speaker 1:And you have to navigate things so differently because a lot of the traits that when a man exhibits them within the corporate America, you're seen as like an alpha male and strong and a leader, and if you simply take those exact same traits in a woman, exhibits them the exact same way, they're seen as a bitch.
Speaker 2:Yeah, of course.
Speaker 1:I mean not to like strain the politics, but I am very certain that if Hillary Clinton was a male, she would have been president 100%. But she's a woman, but she was a woman, yeah, and so those traits were not seen the same.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean even at home, right Like sometimes now Aston can be bossy, but I don't like that word because nobody calls a boy bossy.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Right. So we just have changed the word bossy to assertive. Sometimes I just say, aston, don't be so assertive, right, let's be a little bit more gentle. But I say the same thing to Roman we're trying to use the same words and, instead of putting those words that are typically seen as good traits for men and negative traits for women, we don't want our children experiencing that when they're three and four years old. Like can we be conscious of the words that we use to ensure that they're getting a similar experience, and that I just don't want to be damaging in our language, because there's nothing wrong with being assertive. Men are seen as assertive all the time and it's a positive, so why should women not be able to be assertive without being called some sort of name?
Speaker 2:I think a big part of that also boils down to now we have to change our explicit rating because of the word you said.
Speaker 1:Oh, one word.
Speaker 2:I think so Better safe than sorry.
Speaker 1:And I wait or ruin it for us, babe. Well, I think a big part of that is also we have to address the fragility of males, because a lot of men base their identity in their ability to provide financially for their family. So I think that also plays into the notion of making sure that I maintain that role at the detriment of making sure that women don't achieve that role.
Speaker 2:Yeah Well, for every 100 men who are promoted from an entry level role to some sort of management position, only 87% of women are promoted, and that number drops to 82 for women of color. So again, as you gain promotions, as you rise up in the ranks, that usually comes with a salary increase. But if we are not being promoted, if we're not giving those given those opportunities, then again that pay gap doesn't go away. So one of the things and we'll talk about it in a later episode but in order to make meaningful and sustainable progress towards gender equality, mckinsey was saying that companies should consider focusing on two main goals. The first is getting more women into leadership and retaining the women leaders they already have, because burnout is real. Right, I mean, we're coming off of the pandemic.
Speaker 2:People were working from home, caregiving to their children while working. It was a stressful time, it wasn't easy and a lot of people, especially women of color, said I can't do this. I need to step back and focus on my family and I need to stay home. Right, the kids were doing virtual school. The whole world was a dumpster fire. So who left? In most cases women, who left in astounding numbers, women of color, right. Who got more sick, people of color, so all of this has like that ripple effect. So it's really important, if you can, to work for a company that is aware of the gaps and the disparities and is actively working to close those gaps. I know for my company we actually have an entire finance team dedicated to pay equity, pay fairness, and they do analyses of people in their roles and essentially will like level you up if they see, hey, you've been in this role for this many years, you know this is what you're doing, this is your title, et cetera.
Speaker 1:And oh, here's so and so over here making this amount of money and then there's you over here making another amount.
Speaker 2:They will actually adjust that salary, which I think is fantastic, especially at a company of my size, that they are focused on making sure that there are no disparities between roles and accomplishments and you know, education level, time in the role position and then, of course, like that gender and ethnicity component not negatively impacting salary, but not all companies do that.
Speaker 1:I mean, and it doesn't even necessarily just happen at the bottom, happens at all levels, because I have seen scenarios where I can't I can't remember the company specifically. I'll stop in my head, but I remember seeing that the male CEO was fired from the company.
Speaker 2:Oh, and then the airline.
Speaker 1:No, I wasn't an airline, I don't believe. But the male CEO was fired and then the new CEO they hired was a female and they were showing the difference in the pay and I want to say it was like half. No, it was like like the new female CEO was gonna be getting half what the male CEO, who was not doing a good job at fired.
Speaker 2:Like I was like it was millions and millions and millions of dollars.
Speaker 1:But still like it's it was half of the previous person's salary who failed and was fired.
Speaker 2:Like that's just and now I need to come and clean up your mess.
Speaker 1:So even at the highest levels, you are still seeing this issue.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's a problem for sure. So I feel like we talked about a lot. We will link. We will link these articles and these resources, if you want to dig in a little bit more. Really, the takeaway from this episode as we go into our other episodes focused on women in the workplace and women finances women in finances and how we can, you know, make more, achieve more, climb up the ranks?
Speaker 2:if that's what you're looking for is to know that the gender pay gap exists, it is not a myth. It is based in fact. The data and science behind it proves that it is what it is right. We need to work to close it, but it's going to be a collective effort, but you have to be aware of it. So if these numbers sounded shocking to you this is the first time you've heard of this we encourage you to dig in, do some more research and get a little angry.
Speaker 1:And I would say as a as a as any problem, you know, there's a group that obviously has benefited from a problem and, as a male, I have benefited from this issue. So therefore, I need to be an ally in remining it, like making sure that we find and help women and find ways to close this gap, because sometimes it feels as though, like people think that if you know somebody else gets more, takes away from mine. No we can both be paid a dollar.
Speaker 2:Yeah, exactly Well, and it's like I know it's going to be different right in corporate America, for sure, but that's where pay transparency is now being pushed and I think it's going to make a really big impact for a pop in a positive way. But you have, you know, male actors that are like Nope, I need to be paid the same as my female counterparts.
Speaker 1:That was even crazy to me when I started hearing that Like, honestly, like that's what we need. Yes, like I did like, not the fact that these male actors were doing this, but the huge disparity, even in that enacting where you have a male and female co-star who are both equally important in this movie.
Speaker 2:Well, but then the fact that some of these male actors are now saying, hey, how much are you making? And having those honest conversations and then saying, I'm not going to do this movie unless you pay my co-star the same amount, I think that is chivalrous. That is what we need more of. That's the type of involvement and pushback that is going to lead to change, because in those scenarios I haven't heard of a single movie not happening. What happens? They find the budget.
Speaker 1:Yeah, the money is found Because, even like, if, like these are, like I've heard the stories from like you know, these things even happening recently for, like, extremely established female actors like Meryl Streep.
Speaker 2:Meryl, come on, y'all better pay, Meryl.
Speaker 1:Like people, you would think that this wouldn't even be an issue for her.
Speaker 2:Right, but it is because she's a woman.
Speaker 1:And it goes to the whole notion of it's not. It's not a matter of what you have done, the, you know the qualifications, you have the proven work. It's not that.
Speaker 2:It's literally just because you have a uterus.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Literally. That is. What the issue is is that you are a woman, nothing else. So it exists. Be aware of it If you can work for a company that is actively, you know, talking about these types of issues, the you know pay transparency, the pay disparity, and that are putting together teams and resources to actually address it. Right, Like there's a lot of lip service, there's a lot of performative.
Speaker 2:Oh, we're going to do this and we're going to do that and we're committed to DE and I, and blah, blah, blah. And then you look and it's like, really, you're committed to diversity. And I look at your board and everybody looks the same. I'm going to need you to not just give me lip service, right, like? Actions speak louder than words. So if you can look for companies who are actively working on that, I actually remember in my last role, when I was working with the recruiter and we were, I was negotiating that's going to be a whole.
Speaker 2:Another episode I'm really excited about in March is I straight up asked the recruiter what is a man in this role make?
Speaker 2:And she was like that is a fantastic question and it would be, and it would be the same as what we're offering you, right?
Speaker 2:So, and then now a good friend of mine actually came in after me and with the same role, and he shared his salary with me and it was the same as mine, which made me feel really good, especially because this person came in with not the same kind of experience at all tons of great experience, but not necessarily super relevant to this role. That it was, that it was, and so, had that number been higher for him than me, who I would have been fuming, but it didn't happen, and the fact that I felt comfortable enough to ask the recruiter and she felt comfortable enough to respond really made me confident in the fact that this is something that they are keeping their eye on. So again, especially public companies, this is it's probably something where, in the public company space, you're going to get a little bit more safety and security versus a private company, a startup, where salaries are willy nilly. There might be a lot of familial ties, somebody's cousins getting paid $8,000 more for doing 50% less.
Speaker 1:I'm kind of of the mindset that if a company is that iffy about providing that type of pay transparency, they're doing something wrong. It's just very simple. If you're paying people equally based upon gender and experience and stuff of that nature, you're paying them accordingly. You shouldn't have any issues, you know, stating that if you're. If they're skirting around the question, if you're going to any question, let's be honest, any question that people ask. If you can't give the truthful answer is because you're hiding something.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:Very simple.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's pretty basic. So really, again, take away that it exists, do some additional research. If you are on the job hunt, if you are a parent, if you are a mother, know that you're already behind. If you're a woman of color and you're a mother, you're even more behind. If you're a woman of color and you're a mother and you take a break from working, girl you at the bottom of the hill. Okay. So we just need to be aware we're not going to fix it today, it's not going to get fixed tomorrow, we're not fixing it in this episode, but at the very least we need to be educated about it and we need to understand when and how the gap is closing and what companies and countries are doing to help close the gap.
Speaker 1:And we need to also find ways for as you, as a woman working in the workforce, find ways, even though this problem exists, to navigate it to the best of your ability, exactly.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and it's again not going to be solved today, right or tomorrow, but we need to be aware of it first and foremost. So we will link some of these resources that we talked about today. I encourage you every year to read the McKenzie study the women in the workplace. 2022 was its eighth year. They do a ton of research. It's really fantastic to see what is happening in the workforce for women, and later in the month, we'll talk about negotiation. We'll talk about side hustles. If you are a mom that is working, you know, at home or as a primary caregiver at home, there are still ways that you can monetize some of the things that you're doing. So if you are interested in making some of your own money, we can talk about all of those things as well. So we're excited about centering women in the month of March. We hope that you learned something today and are encouraged to research a little bit more about the gender pay gap and why it exists, and we're going to keep the conversation going.
Speaker 1:And there's a really good series on Netflix called explained and it does a really good job of taking you know different topics and explaining them in a very short period of time Most episodes between 15, maybe 20 minutes max, and there is one on why women are paid less. That is the title of it and I would definitely recommend it. We'll have in the link, but definitely take a look at it about 15, like. It's about 15 minutes long and it does a great job of providing the information.
Speaker 2:Yes, absolutely. We're all about information. Knowledge is power. Hopefully you learned something today. Share this episode with a friend that needs to hear it and hopefully you guys can have some meaningful discussion and we will talk to you soon. Thanks so much for listening. Don't forget Benjamin Franklin said an investment in knowledge pays the best interest you just got paid. Thanks for listening to today's episode. We are so glad to have you as part of our sugar daddy community. If you learned something today, please rate, review and share this episode with your friends, family and extended network. It means so much to us. Don't forget to subscribe and connect with us on social media. At the sugar daddy podcast. You can also email us your questions you want us to answer for our past the sugar segment at the sugar daddy podcast at gmailcom or leave usa voicemail. We'll talk to you soon.