The Sugar Daddy Podcast
Ready to normalize talking about money? Then welcome to The Sugar Daddy Podcast, where talking about money isn't taboo, and you can leave your past money mistakes at the door! Every episode will get you one step closer to your financial goals. Whether that is learning how to invest, budget, save, retire early or simply make better money choices, Jess & Brandon have got you covered in a way that's easy to understand. Tune in as they demystify the realm of dollars, so it all makes cents, while giving you a glimpse into their relationship with money and each other.
The Norwoods are a married, millennial couple, here to help you build wealth, so you can live the life you've always dreamed of. Brandon is an award winning licensed financial planner, and owner of Oak City Financial, with over a decade of experience and millions of dollars managed for his clients all over the United States.
New episodes published the first three Wednesdays of every month.
The Sugar Daddy Podcast
63: Breaking Down Bankruptcy with Attorney Adrienne Hines
What if financial distress isn’t the end but a fresh start? In this episode, bankruptcy lawyer and financial literacy advocate Adrienne Hines dives deep into bankruptcy and its benefits. Jessica and Brandon explore how life events like medical emergencies or divorce can trigger financial struggles and how figures like Walt Disney, Heinz and Henry Ford used bankruptcy to rebuild.
Adrienne breaks down Chapter 7 vs. Chapter 13, highlighting bankruptcy as a tool for recovery—not failure. Tune in to learn about the power of professional guidance, common debt traps like debt consolidation, and the negative stigma surrounding bankruptcy. Let’s shift the conversation from shame to solutions and turn setbacks into success!
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adrienne@theladylikelawyer.com
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When it comes to bankruptcy. When should you start to consider talking to a lawyer about a Chapter 7 or Chapter 13? The answer is really the point in time in which you have debt that is unmanageable, using paper and pen and writing it all down and monitoring and budgeting. If you cannot do that in three years or less without borrowing more money, then you should probably be talking to a bankruptcy lawyer. That is my point of view Unmanageable, unsecured debt that you don't have a plan to pay off without borrowing more money in the next three years. That is when you should consider talking to a bankruptcy lawyer.
Speaker 2:Hey babe, what are we talking about today?
Speaker 3:Today we are talking about the B word, bankruptcy, and I know that's a word that might have some people tuning out because they're thinking bankruptcy. That's not for me. I don't need to learn about this, but I will tell you. I have learned so much about bankruptcy, and the fact is that Americans are carrying on, on average, over $100,000 of debt, and the household debt in America is more than $17 trillion right now. That's trillion with a T. So between a mix of student loan, mortgage, medical, car and credit card debt, it is ramping up for millions of Americans.
Speaker 3:And so bankruptcy is not always as far-fetched as many people believe. And since the pandemic, bankruptcy filings have actually soared by nearly 20%, according to debtorg. And we know that debt can be debilitating right, Especially depending on your income. It doesn't mean that you have to have hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of debt for it to feel heavy and like soul crushing. Get all the details on bankruptcy who it's for, why somebody would use it, when to start looking into it, what it costs. We're going to be really diving deep into bankruptcy today. So, Adrienne, thank you so much for being with us to talk all things bankruptcy Well, thank you guys so much.
Speaker 1:I really appreciate it. I'm really glad to be here talking to your followers today.
Speaker 3:I love that. We love having experts on. We have never claimed to be experts, so we like to bring on people who actually know what they're talking about and are experts in their field, and so that's why we're so excited to be speaking with you. So let's get into your bio so that people know just how amazing you are, and then we'll kick off in your first money memory just how amazing you are, and then we'll kick off in your first money memory. Adrienne Hines, known as the ladylike lawyer, is a beacon of trust in Ohio's legal landscape. With nearly three decades of experience in bankruptcy law, she has redefined bankruptcy from a feared concept to a strategic tool for financial recovery, providing clients with debt relief with dignity. I love that. I love that, in addition to her legal practice, adrienne is a pioneering advocate for financial literacy, utilizing TikTok to demystify bankruptcy and promote financial empowerment. Her innovative efforts have been recognized with the 2023 Best Bankruptcy Advice Award at the FinTalk Awards by Debtcom. Adrienne, we are so excited to speak with you today.
Speaker 1:Thank you so?
Speaker 3:much. We kick off all of our calls with our experts and guests with asking about your first money memory.
Speaker 1:That's a really interesting question and I have to say I think that's a very unique way to start off interviews and as I think about it I'm beginning to realize how truthful your statement actually is, because the very first money memory I actually have is my parents were divorced when I was very young and I remember spending some time with my dad with visitation, and I had some understanding that my dad did not have money.
Speaker 1:And I remember I developed an earache and I knew that going to the doctor would be expensive and I did not tell anybody about my earache and I ended up rupturing an eardrum because I was so afraid that my dad would have to pay money to take me to the doctor's office. And I have to say I haven't really thought of that memory in a really long time, but thinking about it kind of brings me, you know, kind of makes me a little emotional and I can see now that it was a genuine I mean, it obviously came from a able to access a doctor fear that somebody has of not speaking up because, you know, in order to, in order to advocate for themselves, because of money, that that that definitely impressed me and I I that's an amazing question and I hadn't really thought about that in a really long time, but I can see how it plays into what it is I do.
Speaker 3:Yeah, wow, that as a parent is so heartbreaking. I had a lot of different thoughts when you just said that, because, you know, the first thing I thought was kids pay attention. Sometimes we forget that they pay attention and they are very aware of what's going on around them and we don't give them nearly the credit that they should have.
Speaker 3:But then also that you would keep suffering in silence because you knew going to the doctor would cost something at such a young age. And we've been recently taking our kids to the doctor for all sorts of things. And we've been recently taking our kids to the doctor for all sorts of things and I can tell you they have never once wondered hey, am I? You know, if anything, they fear the doctor because we're, like, we're going to the doctor, let's go.
Speaker 3:But they've never I don't think they've ever had the thought of we can't go to the doctor because mommy and daddy can't pay for it, so that, whew.
Speaker 2:You just brought up a lot of emotions, do you remember?
Speaker 1:I think a lot of people sorry, go ahead. I think a lot of people in today's um in today's world, have children who worry about things like this, and I I think that there are a lot of people out there who um are are are not able to hide it from their children, and I think our children are really suffering from the incredible amount of debt load that so many of Americans are in right now.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I would definitely say that there is a difference, even though obviously you were aware of it to a certain extent at a young age that now, with social media and just you know technology in general, that I think kids definitely have a more of an understanding of what's going on because you're you're introduced to it as such a young age in different aspects.
Speaker 1:I agree with that yeah.
Speaker 3:The exposure, right, even if they you know we talk about our kids not really having a sense of what's going on in the world, because what they see in our home, in their friends homes, it's all very similar, right, they open the fridge it's full. They open the pantry, they ask for snacks. They get them, right, like there's no. Of course, when we go to the store, you know, sometimes we have the chat of hey, we're not here to buy you something today. Today we're here to buy strawberries and lotion, right, and we share with them. This is also important. You know, we don't just always get a toy every time we go to the store, but in the grand scheme of, like, what does life look like for others? They see pretty much the same thing, right, everybody has nice clothes, a nice house, multiple cars.
Speaker 2:I will say it is starting to change because previously our daughter was in a private school and now has since transitioned to public school, and so you know when we were at the private school it was pretty much looking at the same person over and over again, as compared to now the public school. You are starting to see that variance and you know socioeconomic level and you know we try to have the conversations with our kids so they do understand how privileged they are and that this is not the scenario for honestly, most people.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I absolutely agree with that. I do the same thing, and I think it's just really important that if you, if you are people who have, who do not worry about taking your children to the doctor and what that's going to cost, is so important that those of us that are in those shoes today, we are making sure that our children understand that they are very fortunate and to make sure that they understand what empathy really is and what it is like to see somebody or to understand somebody whose life is completely different, whose entire world, whose entire friendship group. Nobody has groceries in their refrigerator, nobody has a parent who's keeping an eye on them. The problem begets itself and we have to be paying closer attention to the young people and we have to be paying closer attention to the young people and it really dovetails into what we're talking about here. We get our money, information from the people around us, and if the people around us aren't sophisticated enough or if they don't have the wherewithal to be able to convey this complicated information to us, then we just have an entirely new generation of people who are even less aware and less able to navigate themselves through the complicated economics in America.
Speaker 1:Quick question have you ever told your dad about that memory? I told my mother about the memory. My dad and I have a complicated relationship because because we're divorced but I am, I am not, I'm not. I have told my mother about it, um, and I'm. I think I've told my husband about it too, but I think I've just really learned from it. Right, like I never wanted my children to feel like they couldn't they couldn't go to the doctor, it was always very important to me to make sure that the things that I worried about financially as a child that I could provide for my children, and I was fortunate enough to be able to do that. But I was also very, very lucky, and that's something that I understand as well. So my goal here is to recognize that not everybody is as fortunate. Not everybody has the same tools as everyone else, so we have to meet people where they are and try to help them out of whatever situation they found themselves in. I think that's really what the goal is.
Speaker 2:I just want to point out one thing that you just said that I a hundred percent agree with is the luck aspect. Now, obviously, there is some effort and hard work that's put into any type of achievements that you've accomplished. However, I think sometimes people forget about the luck aspect where like, oh, if you just work hard, then it's all going to work out, and it's like there's a lot of working hard is not the issue. For most people that are, you know, suffering economically, working hard is not the issue. Working hard is not the issue.
Speaker 3:Questions, then it's time for you to reach out to Brandon to schedule your free yes, I said free 30-minute introduction conversation to see how his services could help make you the more confident moneymaker we know you could be. What are you waiting for? It's literally free and at the very least, you'll walk away feeling more empowered and confident about your financial future. Link is in our show notes. Go, schedule your call today.
Speaker 1:I absolutely agree with you and I think that it's really disingenuous when people like me you know I'm a successful lawyer partnership, happily married, doing well. I have the resources. I've built a very amazing life my husband and I have but I am not foolish enough to think that my husband and I did this all on our own. We are exceptionally fortunate. We were born into families where education was a priority. We were born into families that were not perfect by any means, but they definitely did a few things for us that truly helped us, and I would not be here today but for the help of.
Speaker 1:You know a myriad of people whom I could never even mention or even remember, and we are the culmination of all of the people around us, and none of us get to where we are on our complete own of us get to where we are on our complete own and I think that's the part that most people get very their egos get ahead of them and suggest to them they've done everything themselves and therefore it's harder to be empathetic and it's hard to imagine people who've worked just as hard as you and just aren't getting ahead is because they didn't have a stepfather who was a lawyer and they didn't have. You know, a mother who saved for a college education, and these things I've been very fortunate for, and that's where empathy begins.
Speaker 3:Absolutely Well and I love. Also, it's all over your social media but you talk about debt relief with dignity and there's so much around debt that is shameful. Right, society has made it shameful. Society as a whole, I think, is like don't talk about money, don't talk about debt, don't talk about what's in your bank account, what you're doing with it. And so then when you talk about debt, regardless of what kind of debt it is, it automatically makes people want to retreat. It automatically makes people want to say I'm not going to share this. This is embarrassing.
Speaker 3:You know, I should have known better, I should have done better, I should have X, y, z and, to your point, you know, if you didn't have the resources, if you didn't have the conversations, if you didn't have the tools around you, how are you supposed to know better, to do better, when nobody taught you? And so what I love about your social media account is you are breaking down really complex laws and what's the word I'm looking for Concepts into really easy to understand sentences. Clearly I'm struggling with my words today, but you make it so approachable, you take the shame out of it and you make it so that people can just learn without the guilt and the shame, and I think you know you're doing a really wonderful job with that.
Speaker 1:Thank you very much. It's what I've been trying to do. I've been a lawyer for 28 years at this point in my life and I have learned that being able to communicate with my clients and being able to convey information to them in ways they can understand is the fastest way to getting them to a place where they can start making safe choices for themselves and their families. And so it's. You know all legal concept. Anything can be complicated, right, but everything can be broken down and explained if somebody is willing to listen. And I think the thing that I'm trying to do is demystify the word bankruptcy and to allow people just enough space to come in and look around and see what it's in the runaway, and then come back and look a little bit more and then run away, because I know how terrifying the word bankruptcy is and it's ironic because bankruptcy. The reason why I am so comfortable in this space today is because I genuinely know how beneficial bankruptcy is to the regular average American who's carrying debt that they cannot manage. I know very solidly, without question, no matter what you say, no matter what anybody else would say to me, I know exactly why it's beneficial for most people who are dealing with unsecured debt, and that's going to be credit cards, medical bills, personal loans, that really dangerous type of stuff.
Speaker 1:So it is very easy for me to be on a crusade and be out here telling everybody what I actually think, and I began to realize a couple of years ago that being honest and just talking about the thing that scares everybody, that's how it becomes less scary. That's how we ended up talking about LGBTQ rights. It's how we ended up talking about sex. It's how we ended up talking about women going through menopause things we never used to discuss in public. And the more we talk about actual, real things everybody's dealing with, like debt, the more willing people are to listen to their options.
Speaker 1:Because the reality is that there's only a handful of ways to get out of debt, and most of them are pretty dangerous. Bankruptcy is the second least dangerous option available to you most of the time, and I know that and I know why. So it's very comfortable for me to explain to people why something could actually help them out of their misery if they just sit and listen. But that's what everybody else's job is to. You know, they got to get past the scary feelings, past what their grandmother's been telling them and they have to want to reach for the life raft. And if you want to get out of debt, there are very good legal ways to do it, and you should be talking to a bankruptcy lawyer first.
Speaker 2:I love the parallel between everything that you just said and then also what I see within the finance realm, because it's, I would say, on both ends historically has been seen as like elitist in some aspects, in the sense of where, you know, wealthy people think of bankruptcy.
Speaker 2:The same, the way that you're trying to explain to everyone as a tool, and that's the same thing with, you know, financial literacy, investing everything of that nature has always been seen as an elitist thing and not something that the common person can benefit from or, you know, even just understand person can benefit from or, you know, even just understand and being able to simply provide the information that for so long they haven't had access to because it's been, you know, gatekept for the elite, and by providing the information and breaking it down into simple terms that people can understand, it's makes such a huge difference, like you said, especially when it comes to the bankruptcy aspect, that it takes away that shame and makes them understand how to properly use it in scenarios that can be extremely beneficial to them when other options are not available.
Speaker 1:I would also suggest to you that the lending industry has been. They have actively tried to. They have actively tried to encourage people to believe that if they carry debt, that they should be personally responsible, that it's their problem. And the important thing is, and the thing I really want to get out whenever I'm talking to somebody about bankruptcy and debt, is that I think most of us misunderstand or have assumptions about how people get into debt. And while it's, of course, overspending is a component, the reality here is that there's about eight major ways people end up in a situation where they are in unmanageable debt, and it's everything from the death of a spouse that's a big one A major medical event which is going to generate medical expenses, and it's going to pull you out of work. If you're the breadwinner for your family, that's going to have a cascading effect on your mortgage, your utilities, everything else. Divorce obviously Everybody's losing in a divorce. There's no way around it. You're supporting two households now on the same income. You used to support one. Something's going to have to give, things have to be given up and a lot of have bankruptcy. We wouldn't have Walt Disney, we wouldn't have Heinz ketchup and we wouldn't have cars, because Walt Disney and HJ Heinz and Henry Ford all filed bankruptcy before they became famous, because they had to learn how to be businessmen. And that is really what bankruptcy exists for. It's because we are risk takers and we want Americans to take risk.
Speaker 1:But when we have the death of a spouse or loss of a job, or a major medical event, or we have a child who's in rehab and we now have to take care of grandchildren, there are so many reasons for ending up in debt that people don't give any grace for. One of them is overspending, and it's usually in combination with some of these other things. I'm getting a divorce. I need a crib for my kid in this new house. I got to put it on a credit card. Yeah, that has to happen, and that is why bankruptcy is designed to deal with the lowest level, most dangerous category of debt. You don't get a free house in bankruptcy. You don't get a free house in bankruptcy. You don't get a free car in bankruptcy. You don't get to get rid of your child support obligations or usually your taxes or your student loans. There are things you can't get rid of. So the things you can get rid of everyone needs to understand those are the dangerous, predatory debts that are designed to go away in a bankruptcy. That's what it's here for you.
Speaker 1:Well, and a lot of this lending is predatory, what a lot of people don't really recognize. I mean, you have 28-day billing cycles on a lot of things and people don't understand that. They don't understand compound interest. They don't know the difference between interest on a car and interest on a credit card.
Speaker 1:A lot of people don't realize that historically there were laws in place that protected us against consumer lenders. They were laws called usury laws, and usury laws were put in place at the turn of the century, back in the 1900s, because, in response to organized crime were just off the boat in 1915, back in the day, and you wanted to start a little bread company in New York and you went to the bank and they wouldn't lend money to you because you're Italian. You'd go to the mafia to borrow money and they would charge you 100, 200, 300 percent interest. And so usury laws were actually enacted in order to protect people from organized crime. And so for so long and for many of our grandparents and parents, those laws were in place throughout the 60s and 70s and even into the 80s but it was in the 80s when they started to completely be dismantled and taken away, because we don't have, because we didn't have organized crime anymore. We had corporations and they had a lot more money and they began lobbying.
Speaker 1:And so, as we sit today, in the United States of America, there's only one group of people who have any consumer protections against interest in the United States and that is active military. Under the Military Lending Act, lenders cannot charge more than 38 percent interest to active military members. That's it. It doesn't apply to veterans, it doesn't apply to gold star families, it doesn't apply to literally anyone else, it doesn't apply to people on social security, it doesn't apply to anybody else. And that means a lot of people don't realize. I had, I just I had a great video a couple of weeks ago showing an actual loan where somebody had a 499% interest loan, and this is something that you and I don't even know. I mean, we don't see this, you don't just realize it's happening. You have no idea how many people have 500% consumer loans that they don't even understand these loans, and that's what I mean when I say it's predatory.
Speaker 1:We have the payday lenders on the on. You know, in strip malls, you know, telling people to just, you know with with dancing, dancing animals out front saying, come on in and get your money. It's very similar to what we were experiencing on college campuses back in the day, when they'd shoot the t-shirt out of a gun, you know, and if you caught it, you could sign up for a credit card. I mean, it's just different tactics, but it's all the same concept and it's a system that is designed to trap people, because the American economy needs us to be spending lots of money in order to operate, and they don't care if it's debt. And that's why bankruptcy exists, because we all know that these lenders are able to run roughshod completely over us. Our recourse, our safety valve, our net to catch us is bankruptcy. So if you don't understand how beneficial and safe bankruptcy can make you, then you are not flying with a parachute.
Speaker 3:Yeah, let's get into that, because there's a lot of details that go into bankruptcy. You've mentioned a couple, right. What does get taken care of, what doesn't? What are the risks? So, high level, what is bankruptcy, adrienne?
Speaker 1:Bankruptcy is a legal way by which corporations, small businesses or individuals and families can legally either reduce the amount of general unsecured non-priority debt they have and pay it off in an organized period of time, or, if they otherwise qualify, they can actually completely eliminate general unsecured non-priority debt by going through this legal process.
Speaker 3:Okay, and we're going to focus on the individuals, not the corporations and small businesses. But from my research, that would offer either Chapter 7 or Chapter 13 for an individual. Is that correct?
Speaker 1:That's correct and that is what I do as a consumer bankruptcy attorney. I'm not a corporate or business bankruptcy attorney. I'm a consumer attorney and I represent people who file chapter seven bankruptcies and chapter 13 bankruptcies. People would come to me for the exact same reason and whether or not they're filing a 7 or a 13 is going to depend a lot on some very detailed information about them specifically and the state they live in.
Speaker 2:Okay, Quick question Once we obviously get into the differences between the two of them, is there one that is generally used more than the other?
Speaker 1:The answer to that is that there is one that is easier, that everybody wants to be in, and there's one that is harder and is a gut check and people oftentimes aren't really sure if that's the one they want to do. But there's one that's easier and that is going to be the Chapter 7. The harder bankruptcy is Chapter 13. And I think that they're both equally as common to be filed, although I think a lot of people who could file a 13 choose not to because it sounds very complicated and difficult to them.
Speaker 3:Interesting, choose not to because it sounds very complicated and difficult to them. Interesting. Can we get into Chapter 7 and when and why that would be used?
Speaker 1:And to your point now why is it the easier one? Well, let me say that when it comes to bankruptcy, when should you start to consider talking to a lawyer about a Chapter 7 or Chapter 13? The answer is really the point in time in. If you cannot do that in three years or less without borrowing more money, then you should probably be talking to a bankruptcy lawyer. That is my point of view Unmanageable, unsecured debt that you don't have a plan to pay off without borrowing more money in the next three years that is when you should consider talking to a bankruptcy lawyer. And when you go to a bankruptcy lawyer, it's at that point that we're going to try to figure out if we can get you into a Chapter 7 or if we have to talk to you about a 13. So, a Chapter 7 and a Chapter 13,. You'd come to the lawyer at the same time because you don't know what you're going to be in. But the answer is before you want to talk to a lawyer, before you do something like borrow against your 401k or borrow against the equity in your home or take out a consolidation loan or go into debt settlement or debt repair, because all of those things are more dangerous than filing bankruptcy would probably be for you. So you should get that information first.
Speaker 1:I think most people think that bankruptcy is so bad that it's the last thing that they consider, when in fact it should be the thing you consider. Before you do anything like borrowing more money or risking your future retirement or risking the home that you live in, you should always be talking to a bankruptcy lawyer. So that's really the turning point that I think for most people, when they have that aha moment that they are not going to be able to get out of this. And it doesn't mean that you've fallen behind on your debt. Half the people who come to me are still completely current on all their payments. That's not the determining factor. It's the moment you know that there's no end game. That moment is the moment you have to do a gut check and say I need to change something now, because doing nothing doesn't help you.
Speaker 2:That's a very insightful and very different way than, I say, majority of people view it, because even myself, you know I would have I would be leaning towards the side of it's kind of the last option. You may have started. You're not necessarily behind on your payments, but maybe there's a potential for it, or you've already started to be behind on some of them. I never would have necessarily thought, hey, let me go ahead and map out the timeframe, especially the timeframe. That was actually very helpful. The three years was very helpful in the sense of mapping out, and if you cannot do that without, like you said, borrowing more money, then let's go ahead and explore the options that are available to us through bankruptcy. That is very interesting.
Speaker 1:I think it's really important to understand that. A very big component of my personal point of view on this matter is that the longer you have debt, the longer you're servicing unsecured, non-priority debt, the longer it is you're going to have to wait before you can robustly save for your own retirement. Number one start that business, build wealth. You've got to get through it fast and quickly, and the sooner you can, the more robust your future can be. And I think people just sit in the misery so long, spinning in circles, borrowing money from here, taking a consolidation loan here. It's all still compounding interest. You still don't have all the extra money to make these payments. You're just moving the payments around. And we got to get down to the real, real crux of the problem, because if we don't figure out a solution, then you're going to keep doing this forever and you will never build wealth. And the entire goal here, the entire purpose of bankruptcy, is to move you through a difficult time financially and get you back right. And that's the thing people don't understand.
Speaker 1:Bankruptcy is not the end. It's not that you're not crashing the car. You're pulling it off the highway and letting AAA fix it and getting back on. If you're doing what you're. If you're not talking to a bankruptcy lawyer, your foot to to the metal and smoke's coming out of your car and the people who file bankruptcy are going to fly right past you. You have to see this as a wealth-building tool, because in order to get to that place, in order to be able to have the ability to start the business and to save for your kid's college and to buy the house with the picket fence, you have to get through the debt, and that is what America wants you to do. We want you to live the American dream. That's why bankruptcy exists so that you can get back on the highway. It's not the end. It's the point where a lot of people's lives actually get better financially. That's the point.
Speaker 3:I love that analogy. I think one of the common themes when we have guests on, especially lawyers and attorneys, is seek expert advice as soon as possible. Right, Talk to the experts. You said something at the beginning of our call where you said something about somebody's grandma and it's like, oh, so many people are like, well, my mom said, my uncle said my friend's sister's cousin had this experience. So, no, you don't know. Personal finance is personal. Your debt is personal. Your story is unique. You need to talk to an expert so that they can examine your situation, not your grandmama's, not your cousin, not kooky down the street your situation, and the sooner you can do that the better.
Speaker 2:Right, I mean I'm always sorry, go ahead. I'm always baffled at the people, the advice that people take from certain people. It baffles me all the time that I mean I had one scenario where I had a client who was looking to cancel an insurance, a term life insurance policy and I was like you know what prompted this? Because the call came out of nowhere. And she was like, well, you know, my cousin said that I'm overinsured One. You can't be overinsured because you can have more insurance you'd like to pay for, but the insurance company is not going to insure you for more than what they deem you to be valued. And I was like, okay. I was like, well, what does your cousin do for a living? Are they a financial advisor? Sell insurance? Whatever it may be? They were a mail person. I was like, so you're telling me that you're taking advice from someone who has no experience in financial services and also is not going to take care of your family if something happens to you?
Speaker 2:She was like well when you break it down like that, it does sound crazy. I was like, yeah, it is crazy.
Speaker 3:Like don't call me about this again, Adrian, let's get into. So we have Chapter 7, Chapter 13, overarching theme. Yeah, if you want to break those down, that would be great.
Speaker 1:Yeah, let me break them down briefly for you so that your audience understands. The reason why Chapter 7 is such a coveted bankruptcy to file is because you can do exactly what I said is. Because you can do exactly what I said, you get to file a Chapter 7 bankruptcy with your local bankruptcy court and if you meet all of the parameters, you will actually get to come out of bankruptcy a couple of months later with all of your credit cards, medical bills, personal loans are discharged or wiped away. It's called general unsecured, non-priority debt and that's really a big category that represents everything that's basically not really really important debt which is going to be taxes, child support, alimony, student loans. We call that priority debt. It's not priority debt, it's not super, super important at the top and it's not secured debt. So secured debts are car loans. Your car loan is secured by the title of your car. Your mortgage is secured by the deed of your home. So when we're talking about bankruptcy, we're talking about stuff that's not priority and it's not generally secured. We're talking about general unsecured, non-priority debt. Think the Verizon contract right that you switched over to Altel 10 years ago and they've been chasing you and now it's several thousand dollars, the credit cards, obviously, payday loans, all of those types of things are the stuff that goes away in bankruptcy and if you qualify, we get rid of all of that in a Chapter 7. And when it comes to secured loans, if you're upside down or you have negative equity, that goes into the unsecured category and we can get rid of that vehicle for you or the upside down thing that you were responsible for.
Speaker 1:But in order to qualify to file this fabulous Chapter 7 bankruptcy, a couple of things have to happen. Number one, and most importantly, your household has to meet a household income test. Your household has to be below a certain number and it is just simply a formula that's been designed by the federal government. And I will give you an example. Just an example here in the state of Ohio, our exemption limit for a single person is $61,000. So if you live alone and you're single and you make $61,000 or less in the state of Ohio, you would qualify in theory to file a Chapter 7. Those numbers go up incrementally. So a family of two is $77,000. A family of three is $94,000. A family of four? It goes up like that. Those numbers are different in every state, but every state's going to have some similarity in terms of where those numbers are going to fall. So that's the first thing you have to do in order to qualify to file a Chapter 7 bankruptcy.
Speaker 1:The second thing that has to happen is Chapter 7 is actually called a liquidation, and that's the part that I think some people have some understanding about, but they don't know how it plays out. If you file a Chapter 7 bankruptcy, the bankruptcy court, through the bankruptcy trustee, can take away assets that you have that are more valuable than your state allows you to keep, and so every state has a list of exemptions that are available for the people who file bankruptcy in that state. So, for example, in Ohio you can have a home each person, a husband and wife who own a home you two together. If you lived in Ohio, you could own a home valued at $322,000 with no mortgage on it, and it would be safe in a Chapter 7. But the problem with bankruptcy in America is that these exemptions are different in every state. So, for example, the state of Illinois only has an exemption of $15,000 per person.
Speaker 1:So a bankruptcy in Illinois looks very different than one in Ohio, because what happens is if you either make too much money to file a seven, or you have an asset that is beyond the value of your state's exemption, then you have to look at a chapter 13.
Speaker 1:And so, for one of those two reasons, we would then start to look at a 13. If you have to go into it because you make more money than you are allowed to make in a chapter seven for your household size, then there's a formula, and it's going to tell us what you have to pay. If you want to go into a chapter 13 because you have all this debt but you still want to save your house or your car, then your payment will be whatever it requires in order to keep the thing, and you may be able to afford it and you may not. So chapter 13 can be very painful for a lot of people because it's not what they wanted to do and they have to be in a payment plan for three to five years, either paying what they can afford or what they have to pay to keep the thing Okay.
Speaker 2:So, when it comes to the variance in bankruptcy laws for each state, I'm assuming that it's based upon residency. Now, let's just say, hypothetically, you are in a state that you know, let's just use the two that you use as far as, like you know, with Illinois maybe not having the most favorable laws in comparison to was it Ohio? You said. Yes comparison to. Was it Ohio? You said yes. What if you were to move to Ohio and then become a resident of Ohio? Could you take advantage of their bankruptcy laws?
Speaker 1:That is a great question. The answer is if you move to a new state, you have to use your former state's exemptions for two years, because everybody would want to sell their stuff and move to Texas because Texas has an unlimited exemption for a home and for a car for every licensed driver, and that means you can have a $20 million. You can be Dallas I don't know if you guys remember Dallas you can be Dallas. You can be Dallas. You can have a $10 million home and you can each drive a Bugatti. But if you meet the income test, you can file a chapter seven and keep them. And so, in order to prevent people from being able to do that, there's a two-year look back that you have to use your old state's exemptions. That basically gives your creditors two years to track you down and try to levy against you before you can squeeze yourself into a bankruptcy. But I got to say I think more people should be doing that. To be honest with you, I think a lot of people end up just crying in Illinois and you know, I think somebody's got to be moving somewhere.
Speaker 1:But it's interesting that you ask that, brandon, because honestly, in really anything that somebody can come up with someone else has already come up with that and there are definitely workarounds. Things like can I just retitle my fancy car in my brother's name? No, you can't do that. There are rules. It's a preferential transfer and we go backwards two years and the court has the ability to unwind those transfers.
Speaker 1:So, talking to a bankruptcy, that is legal but still addresses the things that are going on in your life. And if you talk to somebody before you do something like moving or before you do something like transferring title, then you know that you have a plan set, because if you come to me and you've already transferred title, things got harder. If you've come to me and you've already moved, thinking that you get to use your new states and you've liquidated all your assets, you might be disappointed. So people think they want to go talk to a lawyer after they've done XYZ and my answer is please go talk to them now. They're usually a free consult. I offer free consults and that's standard in my industry to offer a free consultation, and so you learn so much in that free consultation. And, honestly, if you still go out and decide to take out a home equity line of credit for your true debts, that's your choice. I just want you to know that there might be a better choice that you haven't considered and as long as you've explored.
Speaker 3:It's like shame and don't talk about it, but I think I would assume people try to go the debt consolidation or the debt settlement route first, but from my research it actually sounds like A it could be worse, potentially more expensive and for people going into maybe debt consolidation or settlement thinking, oh, I get to save my credit. Because I think most people understand, hey, bankruptcy going, filing bankruptcy and going through with it is going to affect your credit temporarily in a negative way, but they think they're going to not have that happen. Can you talk about what actually happens in debt settlement and debt consolidation in comparison to the bankruptcy and why bankruptcy might actually be the better choice?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean I will say that bankruptcy is almost always the better choice over debt consolidation or debt settlement, and a lot of the reason why is because, first off, in order to engage in debt settlement, you have to drop. You have to stop paying on your credit, you have to stop paying on your debts, you have to be behind in order to go into debt settlement. So at the very beginning, you're in the same position as everybody else who's sitting in front of a bankruptcy lawyer. You've had to let it all fall anyway, usually about three months, before you can start to enter into debt settlement. But what debt settlement means is you stop paying your creditors altogether and you save the monthly payments and then you give it to a debt settlement company and they start to pull up the money. The problem with that is that, number one, you're paying a lot of upfront fees. But, more importantly, number two, there is no laws in America that require your credit cards to take less than what you owe. There's no laws that require that lead that they've got like a corner on the market of all these special rules and things that they can access and, at the end of the day, what I experienced as a bankruptcy lawyer, I experienced it every single week.
Speaker 1:I have people who've been in debt settlement for a year and they think that they're paying $512 a month. And it turns out one of their credit cards was never in the program and has sued them, and now we have a wage garnishment that's coming in 10 days and they're still paying $511 out the front end, not even realizing that creditors weren't included. Because there's no responsibility, there's no laws requiring these companies to tell you that. It's in the tiny fine print. When you see it, it will say you know every company in the program. They don't tell you, they aren't all in the program. And I file bankruptcy every single month for multiple people who've been in debt settlement programs for whom they have failed. It's the only person I've ever spoken to as a bankruptcy lawyer are the people for whom they have failed. It's the only person I've ever spoken to as a bankruptcy lawyer are the people for whom it has failed.
Speaker 1:And beyond that settlement, we are now seeing scams where you think you're entering into debt settlement and then they say, oh, we're unable to get them on board, but how's about a loan? And now we're talking about a highly predatory, highly predatory, highly complex loan that people don't even realize they're getting into in an effort, thinking that they're in debt settlement. I think the issue, though, that you're really speaking to, jessica, is the fact that people think the phrase debt settlement sounds way better. It makes their brains feel better, it makes you feel like you're doing something noble or honorable, and that is why it's so popular.
Speaker 1:I mean, all you have to do is turn on the radio and they're scams, and we have the FTCs all over the inn. We have the state's attorneys generals all over them. Anytime I file a bankruptcy and somebody has debt Solomon or debt negotiation they'd been paying into it I have to turn that information over to the US trustee, and they are working in concert with local attorney generals to try to crack down on these lenders and these scams. So I'm not a fan, because there are no lawyers involved who have ethical responsibilities. There's no judges involved, and when you file bankruptcy, if you are filing bankruptcy, you are engaging with a lawyer, and I understand, not all lawyers are great people.
Speaker 1:I get that Okay, but the one thing you have to know about a lawyer is that all lawyers are licensed somewhere, okay, and every state has requirements for licensing, and you can look mine up in the state of Ohio. It's public information. The Ohio Supreme Court is who is in charge of our licensure. And so, and to be admitted into federal bankruptcy court, the judges in my home court have to approve me. I can't just walk in there. My husband's a lawyer. He can't just go in there until he's gotten permission. That gives you some understanding of how serious the bankruptcy process is.
Speaker 1:And at least when you're going through a bankruptcy, the point of a bankruptcy court and the purpose of a judge is to actually protect you, the consumer, against your creditor. Their job is to keep you safe from the creditors who are trying to garnish you, who are suing you, who are trying to levy your home. Bankruptcy courts protect you, and debt settlement companies don't do that. They don't have those powers. Neither does your bank manager. Your bank manager who's selling you a consolidation loan it's a compounding interest loan.
Speaker 1:The bank manager who's trying to sell you a home equity line of credit when it turns out your home is safe in Ohio. Why in the world would you borrow from the home equity in your home if the equity in your home is safe in your state? That's why you should not be going to those people before you talk to a bankruptcy lawyer, because there are ways, because bankruptcy was put in place to protect you and if you think of it as something that's horrible and dangerous, you're not going to wrap your brain around the fact that it is the life raft. You're going to flail around and drown while screaming at the world when the life raft's right behind you, and that's what I don't want to see people do.
Speaker 3:You just made so many amazing points In my head. I'm thinking about the people who might be listening, who are now starting to think okay, maybe this is something I should consider. Maybe I do need to talk to somebody. Everything has a cost. So when you're thinking about debt settlement and consolidation in comparison to the cost of bankruptcy and I know you're going to lawyer me with well, it's different in every state and with every practice and all those things. But in general, what can somebody expect to pay for maybe a chapter seven versus a chapter 13?
Speaker 1:Yeah, a chapter like anything else, it's going to be regional right. I live in rural. I'm in rural Ohio, so my bankruptcy a chapter seven bankruptcy is $1,900 in my office and that's going to include the federal filing fee to the court, which is $338. And it's also going to include a couple of other things we need to do. Like you have to undergo mandatory credit counseling. It's very easy, it's on the computer or the phone, but it's required by law, so that is also included.
Speaker 1:My attorney fees end up being $1,500 on a $1,900 case, and that's pretty standard. You're going to pay somewhere between $1,500 and maybe up to $3,500, maybe in Manhattan or in Miami, but that is the general range for Chapter 7. Chapter 13 is much more expensive overall because you're going to be friends with your lawyer for the next three to five years and there's a lot more to do. But the advantage that some people think a Chapter 13 brings to you is you can get it filed without as much money up front. And so it's my opinion that a lot of people end up in a Chapter 13, thinking that it's going to be easier because they don't have all the money up front to file a 7, but they otherwise qualify. So they go into a 13, so they can pay the fees over time, but they end up paying so much more and I know that the biggest issue, of course, is how do you come up with the money to file a bankruptcy? I see that obviously that's a primary concern and I'm assuming it's your next question.
Speaker 3:Well, no, I'm actually quite shocked. So let's stick with the $1,900 and $1,500. And I'm going to show my privilege here For what it's going to offer. That sounds like nothing.
Speaker 2:I agree with you.
Speaker 3:Yeah, coming from a place of privilege, $1,900 and $1,500, I'm like sign me up. I was expecting so much more, maybe even an extra zero on the end of both of those, so I'm very pleasantly shocked at that, honestly.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I'm definitely shocked too. I will tell you that most people are shocked in the other way. On that, I get a lot of feedback from people you know, I don't have any money, how am I supposed to pay for a lawyer? And I totally understand that. But you're seeing, really you're seeing it from the perspective of, you know, of 100,000 foot view here, in that the big picture is a bankruptcy If you qualify for a chapter seven.
Speaker 1:Bankruptcy, whatever it costs, is worth it. If it's $3,500 where you live, well, how much is your debt? Is it 20,000?, is it 30,000?, is it 50, 100? At what point do you walk into a casino and they say to you step right up. You know, for the low, low price of $1,900, you are guaranteed to win the exact amount of money to get pay off all your credit cards. Yeah, we do it every day of the week. Every day of the week If you qualify for seven, it's so, so well suited for the people who most need it. And the people who most need it, who are in that income category, are the ones who are being told that they're not bad people, that the debt is predatory, and you're stuck in this cycle for reasons probably not completely of your own doing. And oh, by the way, here's the key for the door to get out of your own misery. Let's help you open this door, and that's really what bankruptcy is.
Speaker 3:I had a friend file chapter seven when we were in our twenties and it was mostly consumer debt. It was definitely a keeping up with the Joneses right Again, shame-free environment. But because of that and I'm not going to gender this person, but because of that, they are now living a wonderful, successful life. They have come up for air, they are paying their bills, they are building their credit. Yes, it was tough, right Of course, like the credit was tanked and you know they knew that they would have to come out from under that. But they to this day are saying, listen, I could not be here, I would not be where I am, without having filed that. And I don't know how many of our other friends maybe have filed and we don't know about it because, again, the stigma, but this person talked very openly about it. I'm just really grateful that they sought the help that they needed to get to where they are now and it was only because of their bankruptcy filing that they are where they are.
Speaker 1:And I think that really brings it full circle. I mean, the reality is is that I understand that bankruptcy is the tool that gets you through a hard time and to the other side and allows you to them the longer they're going to sit in their misery. And if they can't get out of it on their own, I can assure you there's no easy fix out there. Getting out of debt is not easy under any circumstances, and bankruptcy in and of itself is not an easy thing to do. You've got to get over the shame, over the embarrassment that the world has led you to believe you should have. You got to come up with the money. You got to look people in the eye and it's scary, but it is so worth it.
Speaker 1:And I can tell you I've been practicing long enough in a small town that I've filed for so many people that I know and they're doing well. I mean, like, I have very close friends who have beautiful homes and their children are in college now with mine, and I know where they were 20 years ago and they wouldn't be where they are today. Bankruptcy is a tool in the toolbox. If you don't know how to use it, it can be very dangerous, but if you do need it, it can be the most powerful, amazing tool that you could ever come across for your finances.
Speaker 2:I just love the message of getting rid of that shame and facing the problem that you have and getting past it so that you can live a better life. Because with so many people and we all make bad decisions financially we've all made them. Everyone has made at least one or two bad financial decisions. It's not the minorities, the majority of've all made them. Everyone has made at least one or two bad financial decisions. It's not the minorities, the majority of people have made them.
Speaker 2:So, getting rid of that shame that you have to be perfect with money like no one's perfect with money and you know moving past the big, the big key is is that you realize you made a mistake. You seek out the professional help to get past that mistake, you learn from that mistake so that once you get past it, you don't make it again. Like, I love that message because that's one of the things that, like we are trying to do with this podcast is making sure taking away any shame from you. Know bad decisions or just you know things that happen in life. You know it's not all just bad decisions, like you said.
Speaker 1:I I oftentimes describe it to people as you know finances. You head into the forest and you're on the path right and somewhere along the way you just take one small little step off the path right and by the time you realize how far off the path you are. You're really far and you don't even know what took you off the path, sometimes right, and you didn't even realize how wayward you had become. But we have search and rescue teams and we have firefighters and we have hospitals and we have lawyers, because people make mistakes right. We wouldn't even have emergency rooms for the most part if people didn't make mistakes right. And so everybody makes mistakes. That's the human condition, and so to assume that somebody would never make a mistake with money is beyond ridiculous.
Speaker 1:And the more complicated money is becoming, the more complicated the economy is becoming, the easier it is for people to get tripped up and off of the reservation. I mean Affirm, klarna, venmo Cash App. I don't even know why I can use Cash App for some accounts and I don't get it Right. And I'm a 52 year old lawyerold lawyer in the finance world and I don't understand everything about finance. So being honest about that only shows that I don't know how some people are really getting by if they didn't have anybody in their life to help them, and I see how people find themselves so far off the path. We need more people who are willing to go, walk out and take them by the hand and bring them back so they can get back to their families and get back to their life.
Speaker 2:I'm going to steal that analogy, by the way.
Speaker 1:I like it too.
Speaker 3:You have a TikTok that's gone viral, adrienne, and every time I see it it really breaks my heart. But I feel like what you said at the very beginning of the podcast of like, most of the time it's not consumer debt, right, that is causing people to seek out bankruptcy, it's the medical debt, and you know, just like life circumstance the divorce, or you know a parent getting ill and you having to step away from work, or you know those just general life things that happen. And the TikTok that I'm talking about is the one where somebody messaged you and said that they are using their Kohl's card to buy gift cards for gas and groceries and in my head, my mind was just blown, you know.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that video, the person who I made that video, the person who sent me that message, um, I come to know that person pretty well and, um, I know that that is a very common thing. I know that when people kind of get desperate, that they're that, that is a thing that they can do. If you have a, some states don't allow it, people push back. You can't do that. I tried. Some states have rules against it, but you absolutely can in some circumstances, and what she did was she had a Kohl's card that still had some room on it and she bought gift cards to buy food and groceries and when I put that up, I think I understood that's a pretty common thing, but I think it's indicative of the fact that this person had never fallen behind on a payment. Right, she's not somebody who would have initially thought, hey, you know, bankruptcy is something that that I should be considering here, and it's just.
Speaker 1:People don't realize that it's regular, normal people who look like they're all well put together but they're really struggling, and those people need to understand that they're not alone. I have filed bankruptcy for doctors, surgeons, bank managers, financial planners. I've filed bankruptcy for politicians and people living in homeless shelters really everything in between, because you don't know what's going on behind closed doors and most people that you think are wealthy, they're mortgaged. There's a very thin, thin thin line for them between bankruptcy and success, and so I mean Dave Ramsey's filed personal bankruptcy.
Speaker 2:I think he actually did it twice.
Speaker 1:Dave Ramsey filed. I know he filed one time and I think he's an absolute example of somebody who was able to become successful after filing. He's very anti-bankruptcy but the irony is is that it's exactly the way that he became who he is today. He was able to do exactly what your friend was able to do and what my friends have been able to do, and what countless people have done after filing bankruptcy. They've been able to cobble their life back together, learn from their mistakes and move forward and be very, very successful.
Speaker 1:And Dave Ramsey can poo-poo the entire bankruptcy process, which he doesn't understand because he filed a seven. He thinks all bankruptcies are sevens. He can be critical of the process that actually allowed him to be where he is today and I don't have any problems pointing that out or reminding everybody that debt is not a moral issue. It's not a moral issue and we got to get through it. It is clinical, it is financial. The payday lenders aren't laying in bed worrying about how you're going to feed your kids. They're not worrying about you and we cannot impute emotion or a standard of morality that we're going to live by if the lenders aren't at the same gate as we are. So we need to deal with it clinically, because that's how it's supposed to be dealt with.
Speaker 3:Yeah, adrienne, I've seen that you've been quoted saying three things that you would never, ever do when it comes to money and finances. Do you know the three that I'm talking about?
Speaker 1:I would never lend, I would never co-sign a loan not for my friend, not for my family, not even for my kids and I would use a tax refund to file for bankruptcy instead of using my tax refund to try to pay down debt because it wouldn't work. And that was my first video that went viral and I'm struggling to remember the first one, borrowing money from your primary bank.
Speaker 1:There you go, borrowing money from the bank where you bank at, and I had a great follow-up video to that, explaining why. But yes, you don't borrow money from the bank you bank at. Don't co-sign a loan and don't try to pay off your debt with a tax refund, because it probably won't work. Go talk to a bankruptcy lawyer.
Speaker 3:Yeah. Do you want to leave our listeners with those three things, or would you like to leave them with a final thought today?
Speaker 1:I want your listeners to know that everybody has debt. I've seen the personal finances of thousands of people. I met with 11 people this week alone just about bankruptcy. So I was privy to 11 people's unique financial circumstances just this week alone just about bankruptcy. So I was privy to 11 people's unique financial circumstances just this week alone. And everybody has debt.
Speaker 1:I think we really need to understand that the landscape of debt has truly changed over the last 30 or 40 years and the information that we had before, the information our family has been giving us, is dated, and it's a lot of it is untrue.
Speaker 1:There's a lot of myths out there, and the best thing that anybody can do for themselves is to truly sit down and be honest about what it is, what their debt really looks like, and sit down and decide whether or not they can truly get out of this in three years or less, because if you can't, you do not want to let this world pass you by.
Speaker 1:I don't know why we're here, but I don't think we're here to be slaves, uh, to to discover capital. One and and people who are following me a lot of people know that last year, my husband was in a in a near fatal plane crash. My husband was in a near fatal plane crash and since that point in time I've truly, truly leaned in even more. I know from that time last year in my life that the last thing I cared about was my debt. The only things that mattered were my family. You know the love, and I'm not on this earth to pay back debt to payday lenders, and nobody else should be either. We have a robust life to live and if we're not enjoying it, we got to do something to make sure that it's fixed and we can move forward and embrace it.
Speaker 3:We certainly hope that he is on the road to recovery, if not fully recovered. He's doing great, he's wonderful. He's fully recovered. He's doing great, he's wonderful, he's fully recovered.
Speaker 1:He's fully recovered. It just gives you perspective. Perspective, yeah, it gives you perspective.
Speaker 3:Yeah Well, adrienne, this has been such a wonderful conversation. I know I say this on so many of our guest episodes. We could talk to you for hours. We need a part two, part three, umpteen parts to continue to learn and grow from you and with you. But hopefully everybody listening has gotten a new perspective, a little bit more empathy for debt, with dignity, right, there's no shame around debt. And, most importantly, to go and talk to an expert, adrian, where can people find you? What resources do you have? If they're not in the state of Ohio, what would you say to them for that?
Speaker 1:I would say to you you can find me on TikTok and Instagram at theladylikelawyer That'stheladylikelawyercom, and if you are in Northern Ohio I actually am a practicing lawyer and I take cases in Northern Ohio but if you're outside of Ohio, my team will pair you with a bankruptcy lawyer near you who offers free consultations. That's really what I'm trying to get people to do is to talk to somebody near them so they have information that they can be empowered with.
Speaker 3:Talk to licensed attorneys, not your grandma. Even if she's filed for bankruptcy before Talk to an attorney, a licensed attorney in your state. We will link all of your resources. Adrienne, Thank you so much for your time and expertise. You've been such a joy to have.
Speaker 1:Thank you, Jessica and Brandon. It's been really nice being on the Sugar Daddy podcast. I really enjoyed this.
Speaker 3:Thank you so much. Don't forget. Benjamin Franklin said an investment in knowledge pays the best interest. You just got paid.
Speaker 3:Until next time. Thanks for listening to today's episode. We are so glad to have you as part of our Sugar Daddy community. If you learned something today, please remember to subscribe, rate, review and share this episode with your friends, family and extended network. Don't forget to connect with us on social media at the sugar daddy podcast. You can also email us your questions you want us to answer for our past. The sugar segments at the sugar daddy podcast at gmailcom or leave usa voicemail through our Instagram.
Speaker 2:Our content is intended to be used, and must be used, for informational purposes only. It is very important to do your own analysis before making any investment, based upon your own personal circumstances. You should take independent financial advice from a licensed professional in connection with or independently research and verify any information you find in our podcast, in which you rely upon, whether for the purpose of making an investment decision or otherwise.
