The Sugar Daddy Podcast
Ready to normalize talking about money? Then welcome to The Sugar Daddy Podcast. Every episode will get you one step closer to your financial goals. Whether that is learning how to invest, budget, save, retire early or simply make better money choices, Jess & Brandon have got you covered in a way that's easy to understand, and easy to implement. Tune in as they demystify the realm of dollars, so it all makes cents, while giving you a glimpse into their relationship with money and each other.
Brandon is an award winning licensed financial planner, and owner of Oak City Financial, with over a decade of experience and millions of dollars managed for his clients all over the United States.
New episodes published the first three Wednesdays of every month.
The Sugar Daddy Podcast
81: Money Moves for Stay at Home Moms with Jenni Sisson
Jessica and Brandon sit down with finance writer and stay at home mom, Jenni Sisson. They discuss her journey from being a stay-at-home mom to personal finance writer while explaining how mothers can build wealth, protect their financial futures, and find fulfillment both within and beyond their parenting roles.
In this episode we talk about about:
-The market value of a SAHMs unpaid labor and hidden opportunity costs
- Financial protections and considerations for SAHMs
-Side hustles and personal fulfillment
Watch this episode in video form on YouTube
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Notes from the show:
And for me, I love my kids. They're a wonderful part of my life, they're maybe an essential part of my life, but working fills a bucket that the kids don't fill for me, and I've talked to a lot of stay-at-home moms that feel the same, and I think that's why you see so many stay-at-home moms with a side hustle or working from home or doing these things, things, because you know the like. Staying at home with your kids, it's that cultivating that relationship, but it also like it's. That's the mom side of me, not the Jenny side of me.
Speaker 2:Hey babe, what are we talking about?
Speaker 3:money flow. Hey, babe, what are we talking about Today? We are talking about stay-at-home moms leveling up their personal finance, and it's so important because there's so many things that stay-at-home moms can do to ensure that they are also building and growing wealth, and I think that is something that we have not talked about in the past. And it's such an important topic because there's so many stay at home moms or moms that are transitioning from the workforce to be at home more with their children because of this crazy world that we live in, and we know that the time we spend with our children is so precious and so fleeting. And so we want to talk about how to grow wealth, build wealth and be fiscally responsible as a stay-at-home mom. And we've got the perfect person to do that A mom of five, jenny Sisson, is with us today, and we're so glad to have you. Thanks for having me. We're excited. Let's get into your bio, jenny, because and I don't want to say you're just a stay-at-home mom, because there's no such thing as just a stay-at-home mom Don't ever let that phrase come out of your mouth, right? But you do work. And so we're going to get into your bio and into your background, and I'm excited for this conversation.
Speaker 3:Jenny Sisson is a personal finance writer. She's been published in Business Insider, newsweek, marketwatch, finance Buzz and Fox Money. In addition to writing, jenny hosts the Mama's Money Map podcast to help fellow stay-at-home moms on their journey to financial freedom. She is also a wife and mom to four bio kids and one foster kid. She has lived in eight US states and Russia. We're going to need to talk about that Russia part. When she's not writing or podcasting about personal finance, she's hiking along the Wasatch Front, baking something with chocolate in it or beating someone at Scrabble. Thank you, jenny, for being with us today.
Speaker 1:Thanks so much for inviting me.
Speaker 3:All right. We start all of our episodes with a guest talking about your first money memory. So let's dive in to that.
Speaker 1:Let's dive in to that. My first money memory is when I was how old was I? I must have been about eight years old and I was shopping with my mom at Target and I remember there was some shirt or dress or something I wanted and she said, oh, let's wait until that goes on sale. And little me, I was like, oh, okay, that's cool. Like you know, like I want it now, now, but okay, I'll get it eventually. You know so. And now, as a parent, I'm sure she was like putting me off of something I wouldn't care about in five minutes, um, but I also think that it was her way of seeing like, okay, it's too expensive right now, but if the price comes down we might pull the trigger, and just kind of being mindful about how much we're spending, and especially on things that aren't essential, so kind of mindfully choosing when to spend money.
Speaker 3:Yeah, we've been talking to our kids about that a lot the difference between needs and wants and pushing back when they think something is a need and you know it's obviously a want, but they're starting to catch on and it's it's been good discussion and, uh, we did it last year too, when we, you know, since we're coming up on the holiday season we adopted, um, you know, some children to buy gifts for, and we talked to them about the list.
Speaker 2:yeah, the the Salvation Army Angels.
Speaker 3:Yeah, through the Salvation Army. Yes, we did not adopt children.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:We're just for the holidays.
Speaker 3:But we, you know, we adopted a few children through the Salvation Army Angels program, and so we purposefully got children that were the same age as our children and we were going through the list of their size, clothing, and they needed socks and underwear and actual true essentials. And then, of course, they had a long list of toys. And so we said, if we have this much money to spend on each child, what do you think we should buy first?
Speaker 3:And our daughter, who's the older one, did a really good job of saying well, it's nice to have a doll, but it's really important to have underwear, like yes, that is absolutely correct, mesler's hierarchy of needs, exactly, and so just kind of incorporating those things into our daily conversations, or we don't want our kids to have a scarcity mindset, so reframing, like what your mom said of well, let's wait until it goes on sale, right, which sometimes we'll just say we'll see, we'll talk about it later and that's absolutely us being like no, we're just, this is done, but we'll talk about it later.
Speaker 2:We'll see it was not a no, but in my mind it already is kind of probably a no.
Speaker 3:It's a no, yeah, no, I was just going to say or we were not prioritizing t-shirts right now, right, and just changing the way we talk about is it a yes or is it a no. I think is really important and something that I've been trying to be more mindful about.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and sometimes it's helpful to have that delay because it kind of sifts out for the kids what is their real priority. Because if, like I've been dreaming of a drum set, I've got a daughter that wants to play the drums and I'm like, okay, is this like flavor of the week, or does she actually legit want to play the drums? And it's, it stood the test of time, you know not just, rather than being a fleeting like, oh I just saw some cool YouTube video and now I want to do this versus yeah, no this is really a passion of mine.
Speaker 3:Right, yeah, well, because their minds just run a mile a minute and what's important right now is not important at all an hour from now, and so mitigating that and you want to foster their true interest.
Speaker 2:but you want to make sure it's their true interest before you put a big financial backing behind it.
Speaker 3:Correct. And also this will be your interest for the next six weeks because we signed you up, thank you, and then you can undo that interest, but it is paid for. So it will be your interest for the next six weeks because we signed you up, thank you, and then you can undo that interest, but it is paid for. So it will be your interest for the next six weeks. Yeah, talk to us about your personal finance journey and how you got to writing for these national publications about money and wanting to help other stay athome moms be better with their money and work towards their financial freedom goals.
Speaker 3:Have you been listening to our podcast and wondering how am I really doing with my money? Am I doing the right things with my investments? Am I on track to reach my financial goals? What could I be doing better? If you answered yes to any of these questions, then it's time for you to reach my financial goals. What could I be doing better? If you answered yes to any of these questions, then it's time for you to reach out to Brandon to schedule your free yes, I said free 30-minute introduction conversation to see how his services could help make you the more confident moneymaker we know you could be. What are you waiting for? It's literally free and at the very least, you'll walk away feeling more empowered and confident about your financial future. Link is in our show notes. Go, schedule your call today.
Speaker 1:It's kind of difficult to know where to start that conversation because it goes way back, so I'll try to TLDR it. I majored in linguistics, which sounds it's fascinating field. It's not the most useful field in the world and so but I kind of always knew that I wanted to stay home with my kids. And that was I saw my mom do. She never really had a job, she just stayed home with us and, and so that was kind of my plan. And so I got married about the same time as I graduated college and then shortly thereafter our son was born and so I stayed home while working part time a little bit here and there.
Speaker 1:And it kind of came to the point where I knew our youngest was going to be going back to school and I'm like I don't want to do the same things that I wanted to do with my degree back then. And so I kind of had this midlife crisis of, okay, now I'm 30 something, what do I want to be when I grow up? And I kind of took it like, okay, I need to figure out what can I make money doing, what am I good at? And like, what's there a demand for and what will allow me to still have the flexibility to be at home with my kids, because I still definitely wanted to be there for them, like when they get home from school and things like that, and so, and at the time, I had this night job working in a local hotel, which was awful.
Speaker 1:I hated it. And so, in a bid to just get any port in a storm, I had heard of freelance writing. I'm like, well, I love personal finance. I'd gone down the Dave Ramsey rabbit hole years before and then had, you know, come in tune with like the fire movement and things too, after that and I was like, well, I love personal finance and I'm reading all these articles, so somebody must be getting paid to write them. So I got, I hopped on Upwork, which is a freelance website it's kind of like Craigslist for freelance writing and other freelance things and just kind of started there and grew it from getting paid like five cents a word and then just gradually working up and up and getting more experience in my niche of personal finance and started reaching out to people on LinkedIn, got a lot of connections through FinCon, the conference we go to, and from there I started getting bylines in major publications. It took a while, but that's how I built my career from scratch and from my living room.
Speaker 3:I love that. I think too. I mean I work in my home because I work remote, but quote unquote outside of the home. But what you said about being home when your kids are home, it's just something. You know. Our kids are home by three.
Speaker 3:Clearly, my workday does not end at three, as much as there are days that I would like for it to, but I'm here and I can schedule myself in a way where, when they come home, for the most part I can give them big hugs, I can make them a snack, I can help prep dinner, you know, and I'm here every night when they're here for dinner, right, and so I do think what you were saying. I knew that I wanted to be home for my kids. Now that we're able to be remote and work in this new way, it does offer so many more possibilities of structuring your life more the way you want to, which I think is important. Like if somebody asked me to drive, you know, round trip two hours into work every day, it's a non-starter for me. Like it's not, because I mean I see my kids in the morning for less than an hour and then when they get home, until the time they go to bed for a few hours and I don't want to impede on that time together.
Speaker 2:I also think it's very interesting how, from a study standpoint, we know how important it is to spend, especially those early years with your kids as much time as possible, but the US workforce is not structured around doing that. And it's just so odd to me because we know the benefits long-term of that leads to a better person that's going on to society, but we put so many hurdles in place to not make it easy for families to do that. It's just mind baffling to me.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I think in these days I feel like, with the economy the way it is, it's getting even harder to just rely on one person's income to sustain a family, even if you only have one or two kids, and it's nearly impossible when you get and that was another reason for, um, you know, building my careers so that we have fewer fail points Cause if my husband were to get laid off and that's happened before, you know like then we're a hundred percent out of income, whereas if you're, if you have two incomes, there's less risk.
Speaker 3:Like you know, there's.
Speaker 1:There's perks and drawbacks to both, but it's it's really hard.
Speaker 2:And also also even depends on, like, for example, what your your career is prior to maybe becoming a stay-at-home mom, if you do have one. I mean, we have friends who have had four kids, and the mom was a elementary school teacher and I was, like you know, having this many kids with how much we're going to pay for daycare. I'm just trading my you know teaching salary for straight to daycare. I might as well stay at home and spend the time, and you know that I would like to spend my kids, so you have to factor all that stuff in as well.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, and that's. That's a lot of the kind of the deal breaker for a lot of moms and a lot of families, I think, is like it literally does not make financial sense for me to work and it. But then you also have to factor in like, okay, staying in my field, staying credentialed, staying up on the technology depending on what field you're in there's opportunity costs there and I kind of I went into being a stay at home mom, not realizing some of those opportunity costs. It worked, it worked out for me.
Speaker 1:But I really wish if I could go back and tell my younger self, like these are things you need to think about. Is like stay-at-home mom, it's, it's not a career choice, it's a lifestyle choice, but it's not a career. And then, um, and I wish I would have kind of gone into that thinking a little harder about like, okay, this is my choice for this time in my life and I don't regret that choice. It was definitely the best for my family. But I really wish I would have seen more of the long game. Like, okay, that works now, when you're, you know, 28. When you're 35, what do you want to do when you're 47, 52, 60? Like, what do you still just want to be at home? 60? Like what? Do you still just want to be at home, or is there something else more fulfilling that you want to do once your kids are grown and flown?
Speaker 2:And it was hard for you, Like there wasn't, that wasn't modeled in the sense of being able to know, to have those thoughts and conversations prior to you know, being a stay at home mom. That information wasn't available, that wasn't. People weren't even thinking about that.
Speaker 1:So it makes it hard to have that Well and also yeah, absolutely. And also like back in like my parents' generation, like it was totally possible for my family to rely on my dad's income. So financially that wasn't really a consideration and my mom wasn't. My mom also wasn't chomping at the bit to go get a job. She was very fulfilled with being a mother. Like that was very fulfilling to her and for me. I love my kids. They're a wonderful part of my life. Kids, they're a wonderful part of my life. They're maybe an essential part of my life. But working fills a bucket that the kids don't fill for me, and I've talked to a lot of stay-at-home moms that feel the same and I think that's why you see so many stay-at-home moms with a side hustle or working from home or doing these things, because you know the like. Staying at home with your kids, it's that cultivating that relationship. But it also like it's that's the mom's side of me, not the Jenny side of me.
Speaker 2:So I would also say, like, obviously this is not your situation, but and you know too many situations you do have, like in the United States, almost a 50% divorce rate. So if you, as a woman, choose to be a stay at home mom, and then you have that gap in your resume, you haven't been building up, you know saving specifically for yourself, and then you know your kids are getting ready to, you know, go back to school or whatever it may be, and now you're separating from your spouse. You're like, what do I do? And I've heard of way too many situations where that's that's, that's how the woman ends up and it's not a good situation.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and doing kind of some research for my own podcast, I'm like, okay, well, what? What other stay at home moms? I know my experience. But what other stay at moms experience? And I joined several Facebook Facebook groups and I saw that month after month after month, I've been a stay at home mom for 10, 15 years and now my husband cheated on me or we're getting divorced. Now what do I do? And you have to start from scratch. And one of the other things that kind of got me thinking about a career is I had a friend in high school.
Speaker 1:He and I knew each other since the sixth grade. He took me on my first date and he got married to another dear friend right out of high school, which is like mind blowing. When you're 18 and you're, you're going to your best friend's wedding, um. But he was killed in a motorcycle accident when we were 27 and left behind a wife who I, who was also a dear friend, and their three kids and um, and the month after I got back from his funeral I got into a bad car wreck too and luckily I walked away from it and harmed.
Speaker 1:But it was a real wake up call Like this could happen to me. Like kind of when you're in your twenties you have this vague idea of like oh yeah, death happens, but you don't think it's going to happen to you, and realizing what happens if my spouse dies, like that is a hundred percent possible and I have no way to provide for my kids. And you know, I still need to be at home with them. They're still tinies. But I need to get a plan in place beyond just life insurance, to figure out to how to provide for my family if the worst would happen death, disability, divorce what have you?
Speaker 3:Yeah, I thought we had Aaron Thomas on Family Law Attorney and he focuses on prenups and we were talking in our episode about if you do have, for example, a stay at home mom, if you have a prenup in place, you could put in the protections into the prenup that says you know X amount of the income every month is going to go into this type of an account to build your retirement as well. Not just you know the husband, if it's a, you know, heteronormative relationship, the husband putting away for retirement is 401k and IRA etc. Like putting actual retirement accounts in place for the stay at home mom on top of disability insurance and life insurance and having those protections in place. Because, just from a basic standpoint, if you're a stay-at-home mom, you are the chauffeur, you're the cook, you're the person who does the laundry, you're the housekeeper, you're the tutor, you're doing all those things 24-7.
Speaker 3:24-7. If you are in that car accident that you were just describing and the outcome would have been unfavorable, what would your partner have done in that time with the children? Would they have to take off of work, which then again impacts the family income? I mean, there's so many snowball scenarios that can happen in an instant and if you don't have those protections in place for both of the people in the relationship, it can be really detrimental if something were to happen.
Speaker 2:I think, unfortunately, the conversation that is starting to be had that should have been had for a long time is the monetary value that stay-at-home moms actually have, even though they're not being paid for their work.
Speaker 3:Unpaid labor.
Speaker 2:And you can put a monetary value to it. You know, when I've I've worked with clients that have, you know, a stay at home the wife is a stay at home mom and I was like you could put a dollar amount on all the things I said you could put. I should say this you could put an approximate dollar amount because we're let's be honest- you're not going to be able to put a dollar amount that you could put on the work they really do Priceless, but isn't it like, on average, like $180,000 a year if you break down all the roles?
Speaker 2:It's something ridiculous because it's a 24-7, nonstop job that you're doing husband to maximize his potential in his career, because some of the things that he can take on and do he wouldn't be able to do if he didn't have a supportive wife that could handle everything else at home. Right, I think that's a conversation that has been missed and is desperately needed, and I'm glad that you know it's starting to be talked about.
Speaker 1:Me too, and just for all the reasons you touched on, we have life insurance for me as well, because, you're right, like you kind of take for granted that someone is on call 24 7, for in case it's a sick day, in case there's a half day don't get me started with oh yeah half days at school but random teacher work days or just there's there and I feel like no week in my house is normal, because there's always a half day, or someone's sick, or someone has a field trip or a project or has to be somewhere to do something like an appointment, like there's always something going on, and and to have someone there 24 7, available to field whatever comes, like you say, that's nigh into priceless. You could not pay someone else to do that.
Speaker 3:Yeah, no, talk to us about Mama's Money Map and where that idea came from and what you're working on helping stay-at-home moms with and how you're doing that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it kind of the idea, for it was born when I was driving my kids to school and we lived in a rural area, so the drive was long, so I listened to a lot of podcasts and, like I said, I'd kind of fallen down the personal finance route hole. And I was listening to this podcast and I won't tell you which one it is. It's a very large one and I have fierce respect for this podcaster, so I won't say what it is. But she was talking about how, uh, like a productivity hacks and things, and one of the things that she suggested was um, you can sleep one less hour at night. I'm like, are you kidding me?
Speaker 3:Like I feel like I know who this podcast was. Yeah, okay.
Speaker 1:Yes, it was someone without kids and, honestly, for someone without kids, they're living a totally different life, with different needs, and you know if you're you know different luxuries sleep in Absolutely, and so that would have made sense for them, but it did not make sense for me. And then I realized, like this person isn't talking to me for my situation, I think even if that person was right next to me and saw my life as a fly on the wall, they would realize oh that, yeah, maybe that's not a good fit for you.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 1:But I also didn't feel like there was anyone talking to stay at home moms, with some of the limitations that they have and some of the like, even the psychological elements of I'm not making any money and I sort of feel guilty about that and I want to contribute that all my labor is unpaid and I get, you know, paid in sticky kisses. It's it there are different hurdles to clear and I wanted to talk specifically to some of those families that had some of those same you know issues, challenges. To have some someone else that had been through the same thing talk to them. I was like, oh, I could do that.
Speaker 3:So that's kind of what Mama's Money Map is designed to be, I think telling people just wake up at 3 am to have your hour of coffee and your meditation time uninterrupted. Even if I did that at 3 am, it would still be interrupted. At 3am it would still be interrupted, I guarantee you, because our son still comes in and interrupts our sleep on a regular, very regular basis.
Speaker 2:And I love that you, you know, have that revelation and you're like I can create something that speaks to the women that are going through the same things that I'm going through. Because even as a dad like I try to be as present as possible. That's exactly, you know, the type of dad that I want to be. The reality is is that, like I think, as a dad, unless, like you, are a single dad and you're taking care of your kids by yourself, the extra stuff's always going to fall to the mom, like that's just as much as you want to try and be, you know, 50, 50, it's just not. And I realized that, as much as I would like it to be, the things do fall to her. So, like I can't even understand from that standpoint, because I'm not having that experience.
Speaker 1:Right, that's the mental load that they talked about. There has to be a logistics coordinator, someone that knows all the appointments and the birthdays and the insurance details and you know and on and on, all these little details and, like you say, it's it's hard to quantify that and it's hard to explain that and it's also hard to delegate that. Like I'm lucky that I have a really supportive husband and he supported me through the stay-at-home mom years and now Trish transitioning to more equitable with he and I are both working and he's always asking like what can I do to take off your plate? But I'm still logistics coordinator, I'm still the one that knows the things that need to be done. So and there's a burden that comes with that.
Speaker 3:Yeah, we have an exciting episode. By the time this comes out, that one will have come out with Eve Rodsky on making your home more equitable. So shout out to Eve and fair play. If you haven't read it, definitely give that a read. And that's exactly what that conversation is about is making the invisible visible and all the things that go into daily life as a parent and as a parent of multiple children that all have different needs, different things happening in their classrooms, with extracurriculars. They need to be in different places at different times. Oh, we got to get this birthday party gift for this birthday, and I mean, it's just, it is literally nonstop. Oh, and now they have to wear an orange polka dotted shirt on Tuesday for Dalmatian day. You know what? No, no, it makes me want to just like rip all my hair out when I get the calendars that are like yeah wear this on spirit day Like.
Speaker 2:I want to touch on that.
Speaker 3:Nobody, nobody.
Speaker 2:I want to touch on the one thing that I just heard you say about, you know, the feeling of guilt, because all the work that you do isn't necessarily quantifiable from a dollar standpoint, as you know, going into your pocket. That's always interesting to me because I guess it's a little bit different how I grew up, like I grew up, my mom raised my brother and I by herself, and so she had to play both roles by herself and so she had to play both roles. But it's also very interesting where, like I've seen that interaction, where you know you have to stay at home, mom, and, like you said, there is some guilt because you're, like, I'm not bringing in money to help support the family when, like, you are literally supporting the family, you know, and the dynamic that can could be a positive or it could be a negative dynamic in regards to when discussing money, when you're not quote unquote bringing in money like how to divide it, how like making your household rules?
Speaker 2:yeah, like what conversations you have, because I'm gonna go on the opposite of the negative standpoint.
Speaker 3:We I have no scenarios where you know, we know people who, the mom has been stay at home and the husband is the one working and the husband makes large financial decisions without having a conversation buying a car like I'm gonna go buy a mercedes or I'm gonna go buy a bmw car without having a conversation with my wife about it, and I think, almost they feel like they can make that decision because they quote unquote bring in the money yeah, yeah, do you talk to, oh, to your uh, mama's money map folks about things like that and how to make sure that those financial goals and rules are in alignment and in place? Or?
Speaker 1:well, it's still a pretty new podcast, so that hasn't come up yet, but that is, oh my gosh, that's a gut-wrenching. I hate those car commercials that glorify honey about you a car that's my husband knows like he would not come. He, he would not ever come home with a new car. No, no.
Speaker 1:But I think if you do choose to be a stay-at-home parent and I know personal finance is personal and everyone has to do what works best for their family, you know, has to do what works best for their family but I can't see a case for not completely pooling all financial means into one pot in a family that has a stay at home parent, because, like you said, every bit of that parent's work is uncompensated financially and so it's it's insane to me that anyone would feel entitled I mean kind of go back to brandon what you're saying like the supporting the family, the stay-at-home mom is kind of the legs the family stands on in some regards and so doing, going and making financial decisions, it's kind of like cutting your legs out from under you and in a way, um, I think, and even if you have a family where the husband and wife are both working or the spouses are both working and both bringing in an even-ish income, all of those big financial decisions should still go through both parties because they affect both parties.
Speaker 3:Yeah, totally agree.
Speaker 2:I almost view it as disrespectful like no, it is, it is disrespectful. Like you don't.
Speaker 2:It seems as though, like you don't value your spouse as a true partner right and that's the part that, like, would rub me the wrong way because, you know, just makes more than I do. And even if roles were reversed, like, our decisions for large purchases are always made together because we are working as a team. And that's always, you know, baffling to me when people don't have those conversations, because then you're not truly working as a team. And if you're not working as a team, I find it very hard to believe that you're going to accomplish any great goals that you guys have.
Speaker 1:you know, from a financial standpoint accomplish any great goals that you guys have. You know, from a financial standpoint, yeah, and having a supportive working spouse, I feel like, is critical to making the stay at home decision even possible, because otherwise it opens the door to, like you said, some of those financial decisions that run the gamut of disrespect to full. On financial abuse, yeah, we definitely.
Speaker 3:I think that's why it's important for absolutely.
Speaker 1:It's important for state home moms to even think about things like credit score and, like you said, retirement savings and things like that, because just because you're not working doesn't mean you don't need access to money or to become familiar with money. The nice thing that I'm finding is, in most cases that I know of and I don't have you know statistics to back this up, but just my anecdotal experience most of the time the stay at home mom is the one managing the money, even if she's not making it.
Speaker 3:Yeah, that's the experience for my mom.
Speaker 2:I would say that's also historically, like you know, even going back to, like you know, our parents. You know, uh, our parents' parents in the 50s, 60s, 70s. The husband is the one working, but who's actually managing the home and the finances? The wife. So this isn't something new. It's just that it wasn't spoken about openly.
Speaker 1:Right, it was just understood back then. I think as a general.
Speaker 3:I want to touch on two things, Jenny. The first is for anybody listening that is a stay at home mom or maybe is looking to transition into being a stay at home mom Are there a few fundamental strategies or tips that you would give them of what kind of things to be aware of, to look for, to ask for, to make sure that they have in place? And then part two is when we spoke previously, you have five children right and on a less than high income, and so managing a large family on a lower income. Would love to hear how you're doing that, because life is so expensive too.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and it's evolved over time. So back to your first question. Remind me what it was. I'm sorry, I was waiting for that.
Speaker 2:I was like that was a long question. I know I'm sorry that was on me, that was on me.
Speaker 3:I got excited. I got excited. What kind of things should stay at home? Moms that are either already stay at home moms or looking to become stay at home moms have in place as protections to make sure that things are more equitable in their home.
Speaker 1:I think really open, honest communication with your spouse is at the core and I think, almost overly communicating what's happening with the finances, what your plans are for the future, like I'm only going to stay home until you know little Susie's in preschool and then I'm going back to work, or I want to have this many kids so I'll be out of the workforce for this long, or then we'll switch, like some families switch, and have the dad stay at home after a while if they both have careers going into it and it's we use this broad term, stay at home mom or stay at home parent when really it's really blurry exactly what that means. I think a generation ago it would have been different and maybe it's just that you take a sacrifice and get a work at home job that's either part-time or that is a lesser pay so you can be at home with the kids, like it just it's. It takes so many different forms and I think the one core that will on both parents, both the working spouse and the stay-at-home spouse, change and evolve over time and so keeping in touch with your partner about what you need and being very honest about what you need and if you're getting burnt out and if you're feeling unfulfilled, or if maybe your partner wants to change your career and what that means for you, staying at home, like just constantly communicating that with your spouse, to figure out a plan that works for you both. I also think, looking to the future, like do you want to just not work for the rest of your life? People don't.
Speaker 1:There are some people that you know mothering fills that bucket and then that's and I'm obviously speaking to heteronormative relationships but like that fills your bucket and you don't need anything else. But I think that's the exception rather than the rule. So, just looking for a plan for the future, even if that's five, 10 years down the road, like my plan for freelance writing to grow it was a five-year plan and it did take about five years to get to the point where I'm like, oh, this could be a full-time thing. It's not because I'm still, because half days are still a thing, but just looking a little further down the road and realizing that the life evolves and changes and what.
Speaker 2:I hear is a similarity to how financial planning should be done.
Speaker 3:Communication and planning and timelines right and your goals.
Speaker 2:And realizing that things evolve and change and, like you said, it's not just the idea of a plan, it's the constant practice of planning as things change. No-transcript, two days out of the week. I was having her at home initially and as an infant I was like, oh you know, I can get some work done and whatnot. And I quickly realized that is not. It's not going to be productive, like you think you're going to get something done and then I have to do something with her.
Speaker 2:He's like I wrote one email and then like you know you get thrown off, Then it takes you a while to get back in the swing and then something else happens. So like I definitely was not a stay at home, you know, parent by any means to the full extent, but like I got a glimpse at it and I was like this is tough.
Speaker 3:And also babies. Don't just sleep all day. So I think that's the misconception of like oh, you can get so much done, why isn't this huge pile of laundry done? The baby just slept all day and it's like oh.
Speaker 2:I don't know why, I don't know how I forgot about that, like I hadn't even thought about that. You probably tucked it away had some ptsd from it.
Speaker 1:We forget a lot. Well, and the hard part too is as a mom. The kids chop up your day. So bad like someone needs a band-aid, someone gets hungry. You know someone had an accident, so you know like it's if it's not one thing, it's another. And that that choppiness makes it, you know, erodes your productivity, no matter if you're folding laundry or checking emails, it doesn't matter.
Speaker 3:Yeah, exactly, talk to us about how you're. I mean, you're a family of seven and you're making it work. We have two and I'm like how does anybody with more than two feed their kids, buy berries for their kids, put them in activities Like I don't understand? Help us make it make sense, jenny.
Speaker 1:So I should add, like, like we said, life grows and life changes. And so I have four bio kids and my father he's not an official foster, he was, he just kind of came to live with us unofficially. Long story, I'll save it, that's another part.
Speaker 3:Okay, another part two. Oh my God, wait, how old is he? Can we know how old he is?
Speaker 1:Well, he's 18 now, so luckily, so actually I didn't really talk about him before just cause his yeah, I was worried about bio parents and stuff like that on the internet, so, but he's 18, so he's an adult, so he's actually moved out now and he's got his job and is thriving in his new, his new job and new place. So, um, but before, we had four kids for most of my mothering experience, and my husband is a wildlife biologist, which took us to a lot of remote areas, because that's where the wildlife are, is where the humans aren't, and so we have lived all over the place. Yeah, well, some, some of them, them. West Texas is not a beautiful place, but we've lived in Nebraska and South Dakota and Montana and, um, upstate New York, um, so all these different places you know, each one is its own story, but, um, again, whole nother podcast.
Speaker 1:So, but all of them have one thing in common and that's that the cost of living is very low in most of the places we've lived. Um, we're actually fortunate enough in West Texas to have our housing subsidized as part of my husband's job, and that was huge. Um, and I know a lot of people house hack or there's, and it's. It's interesting that in that part of the world I think partly because it's not the prettiest part of the world there's a lot more jobs than I realized that had housing as a benefit, um, like uh, cowboys, ranchers and even the teachers out there had housing um, in some of these rural towns in some of these rural towns.
Speaker 1:So that was a big thing and just the lower cost of living. And with that lower cost of living there wasn't this expectation that your kids did every activity or was doing club sports. They're playing in the woods and playing with each other and things like that. So, um, there wasn't as much pressure to have like the nicest clothes and things like that for the kids, and I think that was really liberating and I think I it was something I took for granted at the time, but it really helped us spend money on what was important and get by with a lot less. I also side hustled for the like. Basically my husband took care of like the needs and my my side hustles usually took care of the wants. So that worked out pretty well yeah.
Speaker 2:That is so interesting because, like you mentioned some things like I would have, I didn't even think about like the pressure that's, you know, we see like cause of like where we live and stuff like that of your kids to do all these activities because all these other kids are doing these activities. I never even like really thought about that standpoint. And then also, our daughter, for like a year, was in a private school and as a kid like I was always a public school kid and I was like you know, I was like how can you wear uniforms as an adult?
Speaker 3:uniforms are amazing, the best because you don't have to worry about buying all these extra clothes yeah, light, blue or dark blue and the nice thick one right and our daughter's school.
Speaker 1:She goes to one daughter that goes to a charter school and they have a closet actually. So when you grow out of your clothes, you just put them back in the school closet. And the first thing we did when we signed them up is you know, here, come to the closet and pick khakis and polos or whatever that fit, because you don't have to worry about if they're cool or not, you just have to worry about if they fit. It's the same thing everybody's wearing.
Speaker 3:It's so great. I mean she didn't like it. It took, I mean, two to three weeks for her to wrap her head around.
Speaker 2:She's our creative. She's our creative.
Speaker 3:She's the creative, she wants to be a fashion designer, our fashionista. So for her to have very limited options was not good for her. It was great for us because the mornings are like, very like, pick out your clothes the night before and even then she wants to change them. But I also I feel like the clothes that we did buy for her lasted longer because she was wearing a uniform all day, because, like yesterday, she came home and there was a hole in her pants, right. So I felt I felt like the things that we were purchasing and spending our money on actually lasted longer because of the school uniforms. But I mean, I guess it all comes out in the wash. But the call out of some of these rural places offering housing as part of the compensation package, I mean that's an excellent thing for somebody to look into. That I wasn't aware of that would exist. So I mean, if you can have your housing subsidized, that's a huge chunk, usually the biggest part of your fixed cost, yeah, so, yeah, that's awesome.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and it actually allowed us to buy a couple of rentals in that area of the world, and because the housing is so cheap, it is a very low barrier to entry in real estate, which is nice as well.
Speaker 3:So are you technically part of the fire movement, Jenny?
Speaker 1:I mean, I flirted with it for a while. We made some family decisions. We we now live in utah, which is I don't know if you look at the real estate market, but it's insane here, like the cost of living isn't that bad holistically speaking, it's just the real estate that's really rough. So anyhow, yeah, real estate here is insane and that's part of why I'm working more and. But we came here to be near family. My dad has Parkinson's and my mom has cancer. So it was kind of a mindful choice to to. You know, and you can't, it's hard to put a price on that time, just kind of like with your kids. So you make it work. But we did in answer to your previous question, we were kind of a part of the fire movement for a long time but also realizing there was kind of a ceiling to my husband's career and then also moving here, kind of put that on hold. So we're doing fine, but I don't think we'll fire, maybe like five years early, but not quite as early as we're aiming for before.
Speaker 3:So yeah, well, and the FIRE movement. For those who are not familiar, it stands for Financial Independence, retire Early and so when you were talking about like house hacking and things, I was like, wait, is she part of FIRE? Because you have to be so intentional? Right, you have to be intentional to grow your wealth in general, but if you're like, hey, I want to retire by the time I'm 37, that's not going to happen overnight and that's not going to happen without a plan in place.
Speaker 2:But what's funny about the FIRE movement is that a lot of people, once they get to the R and the E, they're like I don't necessarily want to retire early, I just want to do something different. That's what happens often.
Speaker 3:The people around you or your close friends are a lot of times, also still working, so what are you doing in the time that you're?
Speaker 1:off. What do you do all day yeah?
Speaker 2:What do you?
Speaker 3:your circle is still working.
Speaker 2:There's very few people that are like full fire and you know, not bringing in any. You know, you know active working income. They just are financially independent, which is amazing and great, and now they have the luxury and the ability to choose what they do from a working standpoint, which I think is amazing. Yeah, the work optional part, I think that's what everyone's working towards in some aspects is being work optional, having more free time to choose how they want to spend that free time.
Speaker 1:And that's one thing too, that kind of took us out of like true fire is my husband as a biologist. He loves his job. He wakes up ecstatic to go to work every day. I mean he flies in helicopters and counts deer and sedates moose, and I joke that he's basically like Indiana Jones and gets paid for it. And he so as far as what he would want to do all day when he's retired. He want to do then what he's doing now.
Speaker 1:So, it's hard to want to like jump ship when you have your dream job, so that's another thing that took us out of true, pure fire, I guess.
Speaker 3:Yeah, well, and it's. I mean, how many people can truly say they have a dream job? I mean so, I mean, that's a, that's such a blessing that he wakes up excited every day to do what he loves. And if he can do that, because he loves it and his attitude is great and it provides a nice living, and he can do that for 20 more years Awesome, or 20 plus years, I mean, that's, that's the dream, ultimately, isn't it?
Speaker 2:I think it's also just understanding that, like, for example, if you are doing fire and and you get to the point where, like I can retire, you know, at 35. And the average life expectancy is 85. Oh, that's a long time, that's a 50 years, and I, like you know, with the today's economy, is not the economy of yesterday. So you have so many other variables and when you stretch out that timeframe even further, the risk is exponentially higher in regards to not having enough money. So you I think a lot of people don't take into account some of the unknown because, like I remember Jess, like several years back, before we even got married, so that she had met somebody and they were retired early, and I was like they're our age and they're retired early. I was like, unless this person has like seven or $8 million, I can tell you they're not retiring early. Like, mathematically that's not going to work.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I think it was a temporary fire maybe, but yeah, yeah, yeah exactly what would you want to leave our listeners with? That are working moms. Stay at home moms, moms that would like to be at home more with their children. When it comes to their finances and ensuring that they can, you know, build the life that is meaningful to them.
Speaker 1:I think you kind of answered it with that last part is building a life that's meaningful to you. A lot of people think like, oh, I can't stay home, I economically can't stay home with my kids, like I can't afford to, and that may be true, but staying at home with your kids, if that is a priority for you and if that's what's best for your family, it's a lot more achievable than people, than people really think they think. You know, I have to send my kids to private school, I have to they have all these activities and I have to, you know, shower them with Christmas presents. Like, if you're willing to scale back your expectations for your kids' lives and I look, even a generation ago a lot of that stuff wasn't a high priority and I feel like kids today are a lot, in a lot of cases, kind of overscheduled. They should go from gymnastics to karate to, you know, a tutoring session, to church activities and tennis and golf, and it's like let's just slow down and let them be kids and that's free. And like, obviously, give them enriching experiences so that they can grow their talents, but maybe they don't need five of them.
Speaker 1:And so if you're willing, as a parent, to scale back your expectations of like this lavish childhood for your kids, then you probably can give them a stay at home parent if that's important to you and again, there are some people that being at home with their kids would drive them up the wall and make them into mean mom, which is a lot of legit concerns. This is not a one size fits all thing at all, um, but I wouldn't. If that's important to you and if that's what's best for your family, I wouldn't. I would dig in to see if you really can make it work financially and you may be surprised, um, especially, like you said, with the savings on childcare and some of those. Can you know other conveniences? Um, it may be more possible that people think.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I love, I love that you said that and called that out, because I do think our kids are overscheduled. And one thing that we've been really happy about lately is that our kids they come home from school they're at around three they have a snack and then they play with the neighborhood kids and they are just running, you know, from house to house, from our backyard to their backyard, from the swing set to the trampoline. They're doing chalk, they're doing scooters, they're, you know, playing basketball outside there yesterday things that we did in the 80s and 90s.
Speaker 3:Right, and it's like you said, it's free and they are having a blast and they're sleeping better and they're getting their energy out and they're in nature and in fresh air and that. And they don't ask for their tablets, they're not asking to watch television, they're not ruining the playroom, you know all the things. And I'm like, oh, this is free and I love it and it's great. And now that's not to say that we don't want them to do a team sport or pick up you know an instrument down the line. But I mean for even for my mental health, I'm like I can't have my kids in five activities each. I mean that's just. I don't want to be just their chauffeur where I'm just toting them around. So I think, calling that out, or even we've told friends and family when they're like, what do they need for their birthday or what do they want? They don't need anything. Read a book to them, do a puzzle, take them to the library, take them to the park and have popsicles after.
Speaker 2:Put some money in their investment account that we have.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, one thing we've done that's actually been really good we don't do this every year, but we have it was Fiverr parties. But inflation you could do tender parties is where on the invitation we said you know your presence is the greatest present, but if you want to bring a present, then just bring a five or a $10 bill and a card and that way that saves your playroom from all the junk that you know is going to buy or break in like a week that people buy and they can save up and buy something that's really important to them. Um, so that's one thing we've done that's been really helpful. On the party I love that.
Speaker 3:I suggested that this year for Roman cause. He turned five and I was like, oh, he's turning five, $5 bill, it's perfect. And Brandon was like I think he's still very much in the phase of like I want to open a present. And so I asked, I asked him, would you rather have presents or would you rather have people? Because we know, we know our circle there, nobody wants to show up empty handed, right. And so I said, or would you rather everybody bring $5 and you get to pick, you go to the store, you can put some in your piggy bank, but then you get to actually buy something that you're really excited about.
Speaker 3:And he was like I want the presents, but next year we're definitely going to go with the, with the Fiverr or the gift card or you know. However, people want to do that with a few dollars, because I do think it. It also gives them an opportunity to you know what they enjoy because they were gifted. It is very different than what they would prioritize if they were spending their own money, and so I think those lessons are really valuable as well as they get older.
Speaker 1:So awesome, absolutely, and it's kind of a gift that gives twice is because you open it up and you're like, oh, hey, money, and then you get to go to the store and then pick, then you get to open it.
Speaker 3:No, I love that. I think that's a great idea and a great call out, and the last two birthdays he's had just at a local park it's been great. They spend a couple hours running around. We did rent the shelter but it's so much cheaper than you know. These three, four or $500 birthday parties where you're renting the jump place or the blow up place or the you know. I mean it's all. Just life is so expensive. So I think grounding ourselves back in, like the time together is really what's special, and the kids are not going to remember what you bought them for their fifth birthday. I think those things like that and being really intentional again with where you spend your time and energy and money is really what you have to do in order to build that meaningful life for yourself and your family.
Speaker 1:Absolutely.
Speaker 1:One litmus test that I kind of do is I like fast forward a few years and, like you said, they're not going to remember next year what they got for this year's birthday and kind of going back to like extracurriculars okay, is my kid going to be happy that they did this at like 25 or 30? They may not care about, you know, joining the tennis team. They may not care about karate, you know. They may still play an instrument you know or you can. You can't always know ahead of time what you're what's going to click with your kids, but you know there's a lot of those things that you know if they won't care down the road. Is it really, should it really be a financial priority now?
Speaker 3:Yeah, that's a great way to think about it. Well, Jenny, thank you so much for being with us today. We're so excited about this conversation and sharing it with our audience. Where can our audience find you, your work, your?
Speaker 1:podcast. I'm on mamasmoneymapcom and the Mama's Money Map podcast is wherever you listen to podcasts, except YouTube. We're still getting YouTube up and running, perfect, but it's M-A-M-A-S. There's like four ways to spell mama and I had to just pick one. So, there's more domains I need to buy, but yeah, mama's Money Map Instagram, mostly on Instagram and the podcast.
Speaker 3:Perfect. We will make sure to link that in our show notes so that everybody can connect with you and learn from your podcast as well. So thank you so much for being with us today.
Speaker 1:Thanks for having me. This has been an awesome conversation.
Speaker 2:Yay.
Speaker 3:Don't forget. Benjamin Franklin said an investment in knowledge pays the best interest. You just got paid Until next time. Thanks for listening to today's episode. We are so glad to have you as part of our Sugar Daddy community. If you you learned something today, please remember to subscribe, rate, review and share this episode with your friends, family and extended network. Don't forget to connect with us on social media at the sugar daddy podcast. You can also email us your questions you want us to answer for our past the sugar segments at the sugar daddy podcast at gmailcom, or leave us a voicemail through our Instagram.
Speaker 2:Our content is intended to be used, and must be used, for informational purposes only. It is very important to do your own analysis before making any investment based upon your own personal circumstances. You should take independent financial advice from a licensed professional in connection with or independently research and verify any information you find in our podcast and wish to rely upon, whether for the purpose of making an investment decision or
