The Sugar Daddy Podcast
Ready to normalize talking about money? Then welcome to The Sugar Daddy Podcast. Every episode will get you one step closer to your financial goals. Whether that is learning how to invest, budget, save, retire early or simply make better money choices, Jess & Brandon have got you covered in a way that's easy to understand, and easy to implement. Tune in as they demystify the realm of dollars, so it all makes cents, while giving you a glimpse into their relationship with money and each other.
Brandon is an award winning licensed financial planner, and owner of Oak City Financial, with over a decade of experience and millions of dollars managed for his clients all over the United States.
New episodes published the first three Wednesdays of every month.
The Sugar Daddy Podcast
90: Rewriting Your Money Story with Financial Therapist Wendy Wright
Your money story isn’t just about numbers—it’s about emotions.
In this powerful episode, financial therapist Wendy Wright unpacks why 80–90% of our financial decisions are emotionally driven—and how your earliest money memories are likely still shaping your current habits.
You’ll learn:
- How to spot hidden money patterns rooted in childhood
- A simple reframe that helps couples stop fighting about "money"
- Why debt often triggers shame—and what to do about it
- How to start healing your relationship with money, without judgment
If you’ve ever felt overwhelmed, ashamed, or stuck when it comes to finances, this conversation will leave you feeling seen—and empowered.
Visit prenups.com/sugardaddy to learn more about fair prenups that help couples plan for a healthy financial relationship.
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Notes from the show:
This episode is sponsored by Prenupscom. The truth is, every married couple has a prenup a set of rules that defines your legal and financial relationship with your spouse. You either choose your own rules or use what your state gives you. At Prenupscom, they write prenups that actually help couples stay married. Their specialty is fair prenups that help couples plan for a healthy financial relationship. Don't let the state decide your marriage rules. Make your own. Visit prenupscom. Slash sugardaddy to learn more. That's prenupscom. Backslash sugardaddy and get the prenup that helps you stay married. Already married, no worries, they do post-nuptial agreements too. That's what Brandon and I did after eight years of marriage.
Speaker 1:In today's episode, we speak to financial therapist Wendy Wright, who blends psychology and money to help people transform their relationship with finances. If you need a judgment-free conversation and way to approach navigating spending, saving and financial blocks, this episode is for you. Hey, babe, what are we talking about today? Today we are talking about something that we mention often, which is how money is emotional and how we really have an emotional connection to whether it's positive or negative to our money, and we talk about this a lot. So we figured it was time to bring in somebody who actually knows what they're talking about. And so we are talking to a financial therapist today, which I think is so exciting because we're going to dig into our emotions and our mindset around money with somebody who does this for a living. Wendy, welcome to the Sugar Daddy podcast. We're so happy to have you.
Speaker 3:Hi, I am very excited to be here and I think that it's just really fantastic the work you guys are doing.
Speaker 1:Thank you so much. Well, we want to make sure that our listeners know exactly who we're speaking to, so we're going to get into your bio and then, of course, we're going to get into your first money memory, because that is how we like to start our guest conversations. Wendy Wright is a financial therapist who blends psychology and money to help people transform their relationship with finances. With a background in therapy, coaching, real estate and business, she brings a unique, judgment-free approach to navigating spending, saving and financial blocks. Based in Denver and working virtually worldwide, wendy supports individuals, couples, entrepreneurs and working professionals. Her insights have been featured in outlets like CNBC, quickbooks and various podcasts like the Stacking Benjamins podcast. Welcome to the Sugar Daddy podcast. Thank you, wendy.
Speaker 3:Yeah, thanks, Jessica.
Speaker 1:I'm thrilled to be here. I'm so glad. All right, let's get into your first money memory. We always love to know our guests' kind of origin stories and their first thoughts and feelings and memories around money. So we'd love to hear yours today.
Speaker 3:Yeah, okay. So when I think about this, usually the first one that pops up for me is when I bought my first toy and I don't know if anybody remembers this one, but it was a Chrissy doll who had this button on her belly button and you push it and her hair would grow, and then you push it again and the hair would come back in.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you're nodding Jessica have you seen this before. So I remember vividly wanting one and not getting one. So I remember yes, yes.
Speaker 3:Well, I think she had a pretty big impact on me too, because, um the one I got was redheaded and um later on in life, I went through probably like two decades where I was coloring my hair red. So I can only say that that was an origin story for, uh, my red hair days as well.
Speaker 1:I love it. So important question did you cut her hair when you press the belly button?
Speaker 2:and it went long.
Speaker 1:Okay, cause I think I would have cut her. Cut the hair, yeah, probably.
Speaker 3:No, I am not. Um I I didn't cut any of my doll's hair. I was like I don't even cut my own I like I'm. I just have this thing where I'm scared to cut my hair.
Speaker 1:I don't cut my own hair, but definitely all my Barbies, all of my my baby dolls. They had terrible bangs terrible haircuts? Absolutely, it was a thing. Yeah, like the bangs that are up to here, kind of thing. Yeah, exactly. So did you buy the Christy doll with?
Speaker 3:your own money or was it a gift, or what?
Speaker 1:was the story there.
Speaker 3:I remember in my memory I bought it with my own money. I'm guessing that was like Christmas birthday money, because I was like 10-ish, you know, like young enough not to have a job yet, and so that was another thing I remember about thinking it was really special because I had bought it myself. I'm sure then I was a little more bossy with my little brother that he probably wasn't allowed to touch it. I can only imagine.
Speaker 1:It becomes more precious when you spend your own money.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, it definitely does.
Speaker 1:Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 2:All right, real quick. I want to speak to the person listening who feels like they can't work with a financial planner yet because they're carrying a lot of debt. First of all, I see you and I need you to know. You're not broken, you're not behind. You're just in a tough season. I created something just for you because I've had people reach out who are serious about changing their money story. But the full financial planning package just wasn't the right fit yet. So I built a new service through Oak City Financial that's focused completely on debt reduction no fluff, no shame. You'll get a one-time planning session, a personalized payoff strategy, your own financial dashboard and monthly coaching. If you want extra support while you climb out, it's $300 to get started and $100 a month. If you want that ongoing guidance, that's it. This is about helping you get unstuck, not making you feel like you failed. If this sounds like what you've been needing, go ahead and schedule a call with me. The link is in the show notes. Let's take the first step together.
Speaker 1:Well, how did we get from the Chrissy doll? And then you have kind of real estate. I know you've done some house flipping and I mean you've had quite the background. What led you into financial therapy? I mean that's a very new and niche space.
Speaker 3:It is. It's still relatively new, so I'm really glad to have the opportunity to explain to your audience what it is. That is still often when I speak, um, or you know, when I'm meeting with potential new clients, um, usually when I speak, only maybe 1% of the people have even heard the phrase before, so it's still really new. Um, for me it seemed like when I got to it it was just this big aha of okay, this was all my history and one of my. I think it's on my about page, but often I have said I feel like my life is like a quilt, like you're just putting all the squares in and you don't really know the design until you look at it.
Speaker 3:So when I found financial therapy, I've been a therapist for 25 years and this was about 10 years ago. I was working this long story short, but because there's a lot to this, I was working in high level eating disorder care. I'm also an eating disorder specialist and intuitive eating counselor and in my in my background. But I because of my business background, because I was in mortgage banking and I flipped houses and you know, even a therapy practice as a business. I've been in private practice before and, as my clients would either demonstrate some money behaviors such as um, these were patients at high level eating disorder care, so everything got delivered to the front desk and there would be like a hundred boxes a day coming in there and to me I was like that's interesting and curious. And I began talking to clients, patients, about it and found they were often because they couldn't use the eating disorder behaviors they were shifting, often into some kind of money behavior.
Speaker 3:For instance, maybe shopping was. I'd say, show me what you bought. We'd pull it up on the screen and they'd say this is what I got. And it was so, so cool. Because they were using the same exact words, like if they were using an eating disorder behavior such as restriction or binging, it would be so I don't get fat, so I can be accepted, so I can, you know, be normal, you know whatever there's. Then they were buying this t-shirt like well, I wanted to get that shirt because then I would feel like I fit in, I'm accepted, I feel normal, I feel like I would be thin, you know all of those kinds of things.
Speaker 3:And I was like this is really interesting, um, so then I began literally to Google um, has anyone else noticed the connection between money and emotions and, as you may or may not have heard at this point, there's research done now, so that's helpful, but, um, upwards, like research will tell you, 80 to 90% of our financial decision-making is emotionally driven yes, makes sense.
Speaker 3:And so started to put all that together and then went back into private practice at the time and then, exclusively now, I focus on financial therapy. I also got money, coaching training, so I have this really unique blend of the therapeutic approach and coaching training. So, um, uh, I have this really unique blend of the therapeutic approach and coaching tools, and then we look at it from the therapy lens and do all these kinds of things with it. So it helps to, uh, really create some change, but not just change, but change that's sustainable. That's so important to me. Like we can all do something for about 21 days, right, but then what about a year later? You know what about three months later? So we want it to be sustainable.
Speaker 2:For the audience, to kind of help them have a better understanding of what financial therapy is, can you kind of explain a little bit more of what it is and what it's not?
Speaker 3:more of what it is and what it's not. Yes, it's just a great question too, because, as I have even trained therapists to do financial therapy, that was a big part too. Like, where do you draw the line Financial therapy? And even because I'm also trained in coaching, so there's even a, you know, there's therapy, there's coaching, there's coaching, um, there's advising and planning, um, there's also, um financial counselors, which often is very different than financial therapy. So it's, it's a great thing to be able to distinguish there. Um, so I'm a licensed therapist and a marriage and family therapist, which is why it's going to be great for us to also talk about couples.
Speaker 3:But in the financial therapy, the way I describe it every session, we talk about money. In other therapies, which we'll call them other traditional therapies, you may or may not talk about money, and a lot of my clients will come to me. Sometimes therapists will send their clients will come to me. Sometimes therapists will send their clients to me to do the money work, because they recognize every time we kind of got close to money, my therapist was like I don't really feel comfortable talking about that and we wouldn't talk about it. And so there is, like you know, you want to have a certain level of comfort talking about money and also, as with any money work at all, no matter what you're in, it's really important to do your own money work first and kind of know your story and stuff. So financial therapy is going to be more about looking at what's your story, and I always say we look back at the story for context, not to hang blame. We don't want to get stuck there, but we want to see oh okay, that makes sense why this is coming up for you or why you're doing this.
Speaker 3:We want to look at the feelings and so one of the things I will often do is have people pause and maybe we're talking about a certain spending decision-making and I'll say talking about a certain spending decision making and I'll say what was your feeling? Now, most people are not used to describing their feelings, so sometimes we'll yeah, we'll pull up the feelings wheel, which you can just Google feelings wheel, and you'll get a ton of really good options and they'll look at it and they'll be like, oh, and then they're like naming four or five different feelings all around, whatever the spending decision was. So we look at that. Maybe there's healing to do from financial trauma or financial hardships. Maybe there's grief, work to do around something that feels like a financial mistake, work to do around something that feels like a financial mistake, because often if we feel like we made a mistake, we can get stuck there, especially if we're perfectionists like me. There is also communication work, mindset work, all of those things that really play a role, and so that is where the therapeutic role comes in.
Speaker 2:Okay, I love that. And to take it to the next, you know, the next part of that is what? Clearly, is it not? Because I think that's the hard part for people is that they start to kind of blur the lines.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah. Well, it's not investment advice. Okay, um, it's not, uh, selling any kind of products, you know, like investment products, or recommending, um, oh, you need uh this index fund and or you, you know, kind of, do this. Um, it's not, um, in many cases it's not going to include coaching. It's not going to include, you know, um, why don't you do this or why don't you do that? Uh, tactically, this, or why don't you do that Tactically. It is also, it is also not get on a quote unquote budget. It's not. Oh, you just need to pay off your debt. Or it's not anything with the word just in the sentence, because it's way more complex than that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, I love that. That's a really good distinction and I love what you said about doing the work around mindset and trauma and building and showing context. I think that and I'm you know we're going to talk about it, but I'm sure that comes in a lot when you're working with couples who have varying backgrounds and experiences with money and building that context can help you understand well. Why is my partner the way they are? Why does it take them so long to make a decision? Why do they spend without pausing? You know, whatever direction people go, I think that context is really important. So thank you for clarifying that for us.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think it's also very important to clarify, because it also helps you distinguish where you're at in your journey and what you actually need, because correct me if I'm wrong as well I would say that, from maybe a sequential order, that a lot of people maybe need to go work it out with a financial therapist prior to working with someone like myself as a financial advisor. If that's what they need, I definitely have experience working trying to start working with someone. That's very clear. Like you're not ready yet, maybe you do need to speak with a financial therapist prior to working with me.
Speaker 3:Yes, absolutely. And I mean tell me what you think about this. Like, this is how it turns out when they come to me. Then we talk about um, what is the role of um, an advisor, planner kind of person, and then how, um, how do you talk to them? And I have actually role played many times that conversation because a lot of my clients you probably have noticed like maybe their their eyes glaze over or they seem real distracted or you know all these sorts of things that are telegraphing to you, this is too big, I can't touch it yet, kind of feeling. And then we practice and break it down to where they can have a much more satisfying conversation. So it works hand in hand really nicely.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I try to incorporate, you know, aspects of behavioral finance, but obviously I'm not a financial therapist so I cannot go nearly as deep as you do. But I do try to address that because, like you said, if it was just simply you know people having, it was just simply the numbers, it'd be easy. And that's 1% of what I do and that's 1% of how people even make decisions.
Speaker 3:Everything is an emotional attachment.
Speaker 1:Yeah, absolutely, if I came to you, wendy, as a first time client.
Speaker 3:What would our first session be like? Great question, the first session is I'm doing a lot of listening and you're going to do a lot of talking, so we really want to go back into essentially, tell me your story through the lens of money, and this is something most people have never done, never even thought about doing. So we start looking back to early money memories because they usually tell us something. So when we begin to do that we may start at maybe the first memories are in elementary school, maybe the first memories are in high school. We go through, I'll ask questions like when you got your first paycheck, what did you think and feel? What was the job of that money? What was the function of it?
Speaker 3:For a lot of people that first paycheck, the job was the ability to make independent decisions and which is really really powerful to see, because that's one of um. One of my favorite reframes of money is to look at it as a decision-making issue, so that we can stop Um. We can easily get stuck on the word money and think money is the problem. Quote unquote. I'm using air quotes Um, and so that really helps us begin to open that up to see what's really going on.
Speaker 1:Yeah, how long do people typically and I'm sure it varies, but what is if there is an average of how many times would I see you to have my I don't know my money breakthrough or really understand why? I am the way I am or feel the way I feel about my money.
Speaker 3:Yeah, it is so. Of course, the answer is it depends.
Speaker 2:But based on my experience.
Speaker 3:It depends, we'll see. One of the ways that we begin to look at it is you can have a breakthrough in the first session. Often in the first or second session telling the story, clients will kind of have some of those lean back moments of like, oh my gosh, I had no idea. Like now that I'm saying it out loud, it makes perfect sense, you know, kind of thing. So there's a lot of insight gained from looking at the story and talking it through.
Speaker 3:The story and talking it through Typically it's easily three to six months of work is a good frame for it because it's not fast work. But I do personally try to blend the sort of like the long term trajectory with short term gains or changes so that they feel a momentum, because that's really important when you're trying to make a change. One of the biggest things that will start to help it feel better is just the fact that they've started talking about it in a safe, non-judging place. Because seriously, raise your hand, but not if you're driving, of course. But you know you guys raise your hand if you've ever experienced a completely non-judging place to talk about money. Most people have not. So that in and of itself can really be a game changer.
Speaker 2:Yeah, one of the driving factors behind us starting the podcast was to normalize conversations about money.
Speaker 1:Yes, without the shame and guilt and fear and stigma and all the things that come with talking about money, you know, and then especially in, in, uh, communities of color, a lot of times it's don't talk about money because it's rude, it's disrespectful, it's private, et cetera, et cetera. So then we miss a lot of the valuable lessons that we wish, looking back, we would have learned about. You know, saving spending, value-based spending, better decision-making, et cetera. So, um, yeah, really important.
Speaker 2:So have you seen where maybe you were working with someone on an individual basis and they have a breakthrough and you know, they start to interact with money in a much more healthy state, but then they get into a relationship and they end up coming back with their partner because I think that's a completely different phase in their life and they may be able to address different things when it comes to that aspect.
Speaker 3:Absolutely yes, um. Because well, I'll ask you guys, you know a lot of couples like have you ever met a couple that had the exact same money story, or not even the exact same, um, annual income? You know like so the amount of differences. If you think about it mathematically, you just sort of extrapolate like the different input coming into every decision, and then if most of those decisions aren't talked about, then you know a year later or a few years later, they're feeling icky and they're like I don't know what's going on, we're stuck. And then we open it up in financial therapy and start talking about it and it really makes a difference.
Speaker 2:So I feel like I could think of you know from my end, as far as some of the different phases that people go through in their lives on, like how you might be like I said in this scenario, you're fine as an individual Then maybe, when it comes to being in a relationship, you need some help. I can even think past that. You know, once you have kids, once you know if you were maybe perhaps to become a caretaker for your parents and having to manage their finances I could think of so many different ebbs and flows through your life where you might need that financial therapy or even planning the wedding right?
Speaker 1:Oh, I want a small wedding, you want a big wedding. I mean those budgets can vary greatly.
Speaker 3:Right, right, and and and the um.
Speaker 3:Oh gosh, we could spend a whole out five hours talking about the wedding. Um. However, what we'll just let's kind of boil it down to, it's about decision-making and it's about having an awareness of what are the factors playing into each decision. For instance, we'll just pick on the wedding for a minute. Let's say you know you're a month away and you've got all this stuff lined up, and then you find out you're going to have to pay twice as much for the photographer, for instance. And then you're just like you're.
Speaker 3:So perhaps you're so tired of making decisions you're not going to make one, but you're, you know you're. So perhaps you're so tired of making decisions You're not going to make one, but you're, you know you're making one. By not making one, you're like fine, we'll do it, we just have to get this over with kind of, okay, normal, we're not going to judge it, but also we're going to recognize wow, okay, that played a role. Like decision fatigue played a role. Like decision fatigue played a role.
Speaker 3:Conflict avoidance plays a role, like all of these different things. Pleasing parents plays a role, pleasing the or like fitting in, pleasing the community, whatever. They all play a role, all play a role, and weddings tend to sort of be this um, uh, like big wave of all of those things come together at once, feeling um, and then when I'm working with people during before and during the wedding, then after the wedding there's tends to be a lot of grief work we do because it didn't go the way they hoped. So we try to talk that through before each of those decisions happen. Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:Now, do you, in these sessions, do you dig into the numbers and actually create a plan for, maybe, how a couple could pay off the wedding? Or maybe the goal is, we don't want to have a wedding with debt, so how can we have the wedding that we want within? You know this budget I know you don't like that word. We can get into that, um, but are you actually like digging into the numbers and helping people solution what they can actually afford?
Speaker 3:Yes, um, okay, you're bringing up some really good stuff. So let me preface this with a couple of things. So I've put together 10 principles of financial therapy so that just to kind of help people understand what the heck is this stuff. So let's start with the first one and then I'll jump into another one. But the first one is to approach money with abundant compassionate curiosity and zero judgment. So we start there. That usually is a huge game changer for people to have that compassion, curiosity and zero judgment. So, as someone's coming together, then also not having that judgment can be really important, because part of judgment isn't always like hardcore, like oh, that's bad or whatever. Sometimes it's just like a preconceived notion of commonly, like I'm stressed, okay, that means something different to everybody. So beginning to open that up and like, well, what does that mean if you're stressed, well, I'm, I'm worried about this and or I'm worried about this. So we kind of begin to do that in relationships. Then we want to begin to look at the plan and let I do move away from the word budget, because often that word has a history. I haven't met anybody yet that didn't have that word, have a history and emotional sort of baggage, so to speak, like that, it feels restrictive, it feels perfectionistic, it feels um, and often budgets are based on not real numbers. They're based on what we should or shouldn't do, and so if you've heard any you know very much about should and shouldn't, that's usually like a clue that there might be some shame. And shame does not help us make decisions. It actually inhibits our decision making. So we want to see that. So, yes, then we start looking at the overall plan, because a lot of times, what happens before you do this work, before you get this um more healed relationship with money and planning, we tend to make our decisions based on the moment.
Speaker 3:So, in other words, um, let's say, uh, a t-shirt Okay, and we all have a. Um, a t-shirt Okay, and we all have a quiet, secret price point that a t-shirt should cost. Maybe it's $2, maybe it's 200, but you, you know, or you're just looking at this saying, okay, well, I'm using my reference point, I'm going to go shop for this t-shirt, and if it's, if I think they should all be $10 and they're on sale for $8.99, I'm going to get excited and think I got a deal right, and then good for me. And if it's $12, I'm going to be like. That is expensive. So you know, we want to know where is your price point, what are you starting with and what are you basing that on?
Speaker 3:And for a lot of big purchases there's usually a lot of guesswork going on or it's like well, so-and-so did it. So this must be right. When we begin to work, when I'm working with a couple, and we look at the numbers, we bring in the numbers, because numbers have an emotional relationship as well. For someone, I'll just say X number of dollars is a lot, whereas for someone else it's not a lot, right? And so we want to see that, we want to talk about that, we want to know what the numbers are, and so, by naming the numbers in session, sometimes that means we log in to, perhaps we log into the bank account and we look at what's going on, or log into their pay stub, because there's a high percentage of people who, um, do not know how much they get paid, and so Brandon says that all the time.
Speaker 3:It's the truth right, brandon, yeah, yeah, and so then. And so that's where financial therapy can be really helpful, and the fact that it's virtual is really powerful because you're on your computer. So I'm like, okay, log in right now, and I'm here to help you, because, logging in, looking at the numbers, we don't know what emotions are going to pop up yet.
Speaker 1:So we look at that Rage when I see the taxes and the social security numbers come out, that comes to mind. And the social security numbers come out.
Speaker 3:That comes to mind. Yeah, yeah, absolutely, absolutely, which, knowing that that might come up, would help you avoid it, right, like, if you're like I don't know what I'm going to do with it, so you know. So all of this, so let's come back to the couple and the plan of the wedding. What I want them to see is not just the wedding, not just this month. We want to look out at least 12 months. And for the wedding, I like them to look out 24 months at least, because I want them to see the long-term impact of the price of the wedding, without any judgment, cause we're just like hey, you get to make this decision. I'm not telling you what to do or not do, but I want you to see the impact. And what happens with that is they're able to slow the process down a little bit, which is obviously.
Speaker 3:I've got breathe behind me. That's a big part of my foundational journey journaling exercise. We start with breath, then we move to intention and then we move to an action, to movement. So let's say we're doing this with the wedding, like take some breaths, all right, I want to have the perfect wedding. That's an intention, that's not a goal, that's not an action step, and then we move into okay, what do you want to do, using kind of the smart, you know, specific, measurable, attainable, realistic, time-sensitive sort of framework.
Speaker 3:Okay, then what I will do is I'll decide on a number and then I'll plug it into my overall plan and see how that feels. Um, because we we don't want to just feel the run up to the wedding, we want to feel the payoff of the debt. Now, on the flip of that also, if you're, if you come to me after it's done, because a lot of people will, I don't want to talk about this till after the wedding. Right, I'm also, it's really important to look at debt not as a number yet, but as an emotional story, because people who are stressed about the amount of debt they have are typically stressed about the meaning of the debt, not the number and so we really makes them a bad.
Speaker 1:They feel like it makes them a bad person. They're morally compromised, like all these heavy, usually not very positive things it's's associated with every negative feeling, every negative stereotype, every negative viewpoint.
Speaker 3:Yes, absolutely, but you can probably attest to this as well. In my experience, paying off debt is very different than staying out of debt, and I want to help you stay out of debt. I don't care about the paying off of it. So we're going to start with. How do we get here and how do we shift that core decision-making of using debt as a payment method?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think that's one of the biggest things that's overlooked is how did you get into debt? Because if you don't change that behavior once you paid off that debt, you're going to go right back into debt, because you didn't address the root cause.
Speaker 3:Absolutely, absolutely, and as a former debt cycler I can attest to it's a miserable experience.
Speaker 1:Well, and that's why you hear people will do like the debt consolidation loans, and okay, if I can get this into one lump sum, it'll be more manageable, I'll feel better, and then, yeah, you might pay it off, but you didn't change your habits, you didn't really do the work to understand what got you there in the first place. So this is so powerful, wendy. I mean I feel like at this stage, everybody should have a financial therapist before they get married, because this is big.
Speaker 2:You're like, yes, One of the things I like that you said was along the lines of you not telling people you know this is what you have to do. So I think a lot of people you know, when they're working with a therapist or even with financial advising, they think that I'm here to tell them what to do and what not to do and I'm like that is not my role. You are the one driving this plan. I'm simply here to help provide some guidance. But ultimately you're the decision maker and you know you might make decision a, but decision a can come with pros and cons and that might, you know, affect what happens afterwards. But you can still make the decision. I'm not going to tell you not to.
Speaker 1:Yeah, but to see the big picture of those decisions.
Speaker 2:Well, I think that's one of the biggest things. People have a hard time taking a step back and looking past step one, because so many things are going on in our life that you know, outside of just what you're trying to do from a financial standpoint, there's so much other things going on in your life that you don't have a lot of excess attention that you can, you know, use.
Speaker 2:We're inundated with so many things and working with someone like you know yourself, wendy, or if you've gotten past that point in work, someone like me is that we have the ability to take a step back and look at the larger picture so we can see past step one, two, three, four and help you with that.
Speaker 3:Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 1:Wendy, what do you see when you're working with couples, Like if you had to put a theme around your work with couples. What do you see?
Speaker 3:a lot of around your, your work with couples. What do you see? A lot of. Well, I would say, thematically, we're doing communication work. So that's really a lot of what's going on. Yeah, yeah, that's really a lot of what's going on is kind of misinterpreted communication or avoided communication, and so, um, usually, with when the couple has a certain level of affection for each other, we can, we can make some shifts.
Speaker 3:If the couple comes and one of them just wants me to tell the other one that they're wrong or, you know, straighten up and behave Not a good starting point, not a good starting point. And so, if that energy is there, I recommend they both do individual work, because there's just there's too much there to come together yet. But essentially, I will describe it as we want to decrease reactivity in order to increase connection, and that connection is both to each other, to yourself and to your financial future as we begin to decrease reactivity and reactivity is not just like getting loud and throwing things, it's also avoidant, like avoiding is a reaction, shutting down is a reaction, leaving the room is a reaction. So, as we begin to decrease that and it will tell you what's really cool about it is, couples will come back after three to six sessions as we begin to work on this, and they will literally I've heard this many times I didn't think this was possible, but we went a whole week without a fight, or you know, like I didn't think this was possible, but we had a conversation about money and it went okay, like. So it's really cool work.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and so powerful because I can only imagine. I mean, we talk about money all the time, not only because we have a financial literacy podcast and this is what he does for work, but we just have gotten in such a rhythm where it's just a normal dinner table household conversation when it's good, bad ugly. Last week we found out his out-of-pocket max is $9,000 for his Achilles, so we're going to have to plan some things.
Speaker 2:It's like one of those things where, like I pay attention to normally. And we didn't, but I didn't necessarily pay attention, because I don't actually normally hurt myself.
Speaker 1:Yeah, he's a very healthy person.
Speaker 2:But when he goes big, you know when he yeah.
Speaker 1:So it was one of those like okay, well, we thought okay, once you hit 5,000, maybe 6,000, and now it's 9,000? Like come on, and so even just that, you know, we were kind of standing around having lunch and just kind of talking through it, some upcoming expenses, and I have to get a crown. I mean just you know life and we just talk about it normally. But I know that for a lot of people those are really heavy, burdensome conversations because there is large amounts of money attached. I don't want to spend $9,000 on his surgery and my crown. I want to go to Bora Bora with that money.
Speaker 2:Right, right yeah.
Speaker 1:But I can understand how heavy those topics are, those day to day you know paying for camp, paying for daycare, getting the car, you know, oh, I need four new tires for my SUV.
Speaker 2:Like that's hundreds if not thousands of dollars, you know.
Speaker 1:I mean it's, it's the daily life conversations that if you can't have those in a neutral, like it is what it is, let's come up with a plan kind of a way I can see how stressful your home environment can be. Then too, you know.
Speaker 2:I mean I have definitely had, you know, meetings with potential clients, you know couples and I can feel the stress through the zoom call.
Speaker 2:You have them. They are just not on the same page at all and I could think of two distinct couples that I don't. They are. They are divorced now. I don't necessarily know you know all the ins and outs of their relationship and what led to the divorce, but I could tell from sitting on that conversation with them that I'm not surprised that word ended if you didn't address those issues, cause I could see it right there and it's, it's hard. There's nothing that if, especially when it comes to couples working with couples, if you haven't done the work to be on the same page before you come to me, I'm not going to be able to help you.
Speaker 1:Yeah, right, because you are not a therapist.
Speaker 2:I am not a therapist.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you are not a family counselor.
Speaker 2:And it's also. It's also, like I said, I'm not a therapist, I'm not trained in this, I don't have a background in this, so I don't want to breach that line of where I should stay in my place as your advisor and then start giving you personal advice in your marriage, like I think that's not my, that's not my role.
Speaker 3:You know how do I? I speak to financial services providers about how to feel like you can be compassionate and present but also not have Where's the line, how to not cross that line and when to make that referral you brought. You guys just brought up some really good stuff, though, but I want to go back to the first thing that I was really struck with. Back to the first thing that I was really struck with and I don't think you'll mind me saying this about you is this whole thing about the out of pocket and not paying attention and not knowing. It's because you're human. It's fantastic, right, like we all do that, so dissolving the judgment around it. But if something like that happens and there's judgment like I should have known better, then that's a very different conversation with your spouse, because you are like already feeling defensive, for instance, or shame or stupid. That comes up for a lot of people. They automatically go to I'm stupid.
Speaker 1:And so I should have known better. Why didn't I know this?
Speaker 2:I think that's the number one reason, especially for people who are high earners or have advanced degrees. That is the number one reason that prevents them from doing anything Like I'm smart, I make a lot of money, I should know this. I'm like right. Last time I checked med, school doesn't teach about finances. So you, being a doctor, not at all.
Speaker 1:Well, and I'll even. I'll kind of add another layer. Neither one of us went into. Well, you should have known, or how did you not know that? Because you know what we sit down at open enrollment before we make the decision together every year, and the whole family's on my insurance and listen, you're not going to catch me. So we schedule time and I'm like here's the plan, here's all the things, what are we going to need? What's upcoming, who, who, who needs braces, whatever it is, and we talk about it. So when we called the insurance to confirm, hey, what is this out of pocket? And she said $9,000. We both looked at each other like, well, we definitely missed that because we did it together. So there was. There was not even an opportunity for blame. If we're going to blame anything, it's exhaustion and life and how busy we are.
Speaker 2:And like we clearly missed it. If anything, honestly I would blame myself because of what I do, for a living, because you usually are really good about that.
Speaker 1:I'm the one that's normally very on top of this.
Speaker 1:So I was like, yeah, but I think it's so easy in in a partnership to be like, well, you should have and you didn't, and you, you said you were going to. But if you're doing it together and you're at least trying to take accountability together, then when stuff like this happens, okay, well, let's problem solve it together, cause it's not your fault, it's not my fault. Yeah, it stinks, and like this was not, we're going to be mindful. Next, open enrollment, because we're not going to want this again, but there's nothing we can do and we're not going to place blame. So I think, even getting to a place where you can have those decisions and make them together, whether they're right or wrong, then you prevent that next problem, which is that blame that so often is easy to kind of just happen. You know, that's my take.
Speaker 3:Yeah, no, that's great. I mean, you're kind of giving a living, real time example of what it looks like to have done some of this work, because it's a lot of times what we talk about in therapy worlds, like do the work, and I'm like what does that mean? Um, so, being able to clear out pockets of judgment and shame and moralizing that happens a lot with money. Uh, moralizing like oh, you know you're a good person or a bad person. And and then also you demonstrated learning, because one of my principles is a plan is only as good as the adjustment process, because things like this always happen. None of us are perfect, so for that it's a great example, like if you're like oh, I didn't like how that felt.
Speaker 3:Next year, let's do it differently. On a more like tactical sense, that I encourage people to have sort of a spreadsheet or a piece of paper where they fill all these things out and look ahead, and you're like, okay, let's be double sure that that's on that, you know that page or that whatever. Like so that you have a, not just a way in that moment to say I want to remember this next May or whenever, but to have also a system in place that is um like sustainable, but organized and creates um. These helps for your memory, because our memories are not that good. I don't care how old you are Terrible, and so that happens a lot with money. We do a lot of mental math or mental sort of I'll remember this and we don't. So we need a system mental math or mental sort of I'll remember this and we don't. So we need a system.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, absolutely. If, for people who are listening, they're walking their dog or driving right now, what, what could you say that they can take almost immediately into a conversation with their partner that can make their money conversations incrementally better with very little effort?
Speaker 3:Yes, I love that question because I have an answer and it's fun. One of my other principles is to and you can, you'll remember this, it's just five, like a few words let's take the money word out of the sentence. So if you say, for instance, we always fight about money, and I'll say, okay, take the money word out, tell me what you're fighting about. Or if it's like, oh, I didn't, you know, uh, you're spending too much, all right, take the word spending out, what is happening too much, what is happening more than you'd like. So that begins to really open it up and get it out of this field of it's just about money, because it's not.
Speaker 3:At least 80 to 90% of the time it's not about money. So we want to switch out that word and that usually brings a lot of insight. Sometimes it's really challenging Because I've had clients sit with me for 10, 15, 20 minutes and they're just like no, wendy, it's about the money. And then we get to it and it's about, you know, feeling seen, or feeling respected, or feeling smart, or feeling all kinds of things Like. There's a lot that can come up with that. So that's one easy thing you can do today is take the money word out of the sentence and see what comes up with, of course, the compassionate curiosity and zero judgment.
Speaker 1:Yes, well, I was going to ask, when you take the money out, what's left? But I love the peeling back of the layers because it it might come down to how that person is feeling, either while they're spending the money or while their partner's spending the money. And maybe I would think to prioritization. Right, maybe one partner prioritizes spending money on one thing versus another, or habits, I mean, is there, is there a theme behind that that you typically see, or something that comes up often when people take the money out? Of the sentence?
Speaker 3:I'd say it's not surprising if what comes up is some sort of belief about themselves and money, that is, a negative self belief such as you know, like well, I was trying to make a, you know, a smart decision because I feel stupid or something like that. So often it kind of goes under that. And, you know, if you think about you know with your partner, if they share it's, you know, instead of like I spent this on this, but they share, I was trying to do this so that people thought I was smart or something like that, like then you can connect on that level. You can. You can meet that person there and, um, hold their hand and look at them in the eye and and just be like, babe, I'm, I'm sorry that you felt that way. That sounds painful versus you shouldn't have done that Right.
Speaker 1:What would you say to somebody who is listening to this episode and they're like, wow, we need to go see a financial therapist, but they know their partner is not going to be on board. What would you tell them to do?
Speaker 3:That's a great question because I often am working with only one person in the partnership. So the when we and this is probably part of the marriage and family therapy background I see things as systems. So even if your partner isn't there, we can work deeply on your money story and look at your money beliefs, your money mindset, begin to maybe heal or get more context, more understanding, and then that usually will naturally lead to more satisfying conversations with your partner. But also I have some real specific tips and sort of structure to begin to shift that conversation. And they take those home and they try them and then we talk about how it went. So it is very effective, even if it's just you.
Speaker 1:That's good. It's like when all the memes are like I go to therapy because the people in my life who should be in therapy refuse to go, so now I need therapy to figure out how to deal with the people who my life, who should be in therapy, refuse to go. Like, so now I need to. I need therapy to figure out how to deal with the people who refuse to go to therapy.
Speaker 2:Right, Right, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:You were going to say something. No, okay, I feel like we could talk to you for hours one day.
Speaker 2:Is there any oh, I do have one. One more thing, one question. So say somebody for maybe a listener out there and they really haven't maybe thought about financial therapy prior to this conversation or knew it existed knew it existed, right. What are some things where you're like you could say to somebody like hey, if this is going on, if you're thinking this way, then maybe financial therapy may be um beneficial for you.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yes. The way I usually say this is have you ever lost sleep thinking about money? Have you ever cried about money? Have you ever had a fight about money? Have you ever felt frustrated when you go to the car repair store and they tell you you need four new tires, do you feel overwhelmed? Do you feel you know all these different things like those are all emotions that come up, and financial therapy is a great place to come in and begin to talk about those so that you can shift from feeling like I'll say often it feels like the emotions are driving instead of you driving, and so we want to restore your sense of agency here.
Speaker 2:That's great. That's great advice.
Speaker 1:Well, I think everybody can check that box. That's one of those questions right Feeling frustrated, crying, losing sleep. I mean yes. Right, feeling frustrated, crying, losing sleep.
Speaker 2:I mean yes and the easy breakdown is that, like you know, you deal with the emotions and one of my kind of like lines that I say is that I take the. I try to help you take some of the emotions out of the decision making process yeah, you can say that a lot, yeah, absolutely yeah but you got.
Speaker 1:You got to get your emotions right.
Speaker 2:Yes, yes, we address the emotions, so they're in the right place, but then let's look at it from a logical standpoint and try to not make decisions.
Speaker 1:Based on emotions, right, right. Well, you got to unblock some of that stuff first. Right, you got to really get to the root.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you're never going to be completely separate of emotion, because we all have emotions and we all I mean I'll even have some emotion attachments to my money, and I think I'm pretty good at, you know, keeping those in check. So it's also being realistic with yourself. It's not going to be completely absolve yourself from any emotions Like that's, unless you're a sociopath or something.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, well, you're right, the goal isn't to detach from the emotions, it's to um, have a different relate like, shift your relationship to the emotion so that you're more like oh, I see you there, thanks for showing up. I will feel this Um, and then, after I feel the emotion, maybe um, whatever it is then then I will make that financial decision, um, but it's with that compassion and curiosity and openness to it instead of um, because often what happens when we judge it, then we get into either a fight or flight or freeze, lots of freeze when it comes to money, um. And so I think that, brandon, was where you, you're able to come in and look at a lot of data without the emotion, um, whereas someone trying to do that without your support, um, may avoid it for five to 10 or 12 years or 20 years. I just didn't get to that. But what really? It's not just that they didn't get to it, they're not procrastinators, they just are disconnected from the emotions that are blocking it.
Speaker 1:Wow. Well, you are doing really powerful work. This is so interesting. Is there anything that you would like to leave our audience with? Because I know we talked a lot about the mindset and you know money is morally neutral and you're not a bad person if you have debt and just those things that I think really burden people. But is there something you'd like to leave our listeners with today?
Speaker 3:Well, I think always that level of compassionate curiosity and zero judgment beginning to make that shift and this is that's a challenging shift, but beginning to make it can be really powerful. I also have a quiz on my website. That's a great place to start, especially for a couple, because if you both take it, then all of a sudden you have it's the money shadow quiz. So it's kind of helping you identify what might be getting in the way, and then I have supports that will come into play to begin to work with that, and that's a great place for individuals or couples to start to begin to get a feel for maybe have some new words to put to things as well.
Speaker 1:I love that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, we can leave that in the show notes.
Speaker 1:Absolutely. Where can people find you, wendy, if they want to connect? Yeah?
Speaker 3:it is wendywrightfinancialtherapycom.
Speaker 1:Perfect. We will make sure to link that in the show notes. Thank you for your expertise and your insights on this very, very important topic, and thank you for the work that you're doing, helping people break through, get rid of the shame, really understand their money story so that they can lead better lives, whether they're an individual or in a partnership. So thank you for being with us today.
Speaker 3:Yeah, you bet my pleasure. Thanks for having me and bringing awareness to this dynamic.
Speaker 1:Absolutely so important. Don't forget. Benjamin Franklin said an investment in knowledge pays the best interest. You just got paid.
Speaker 2:Until next time, sugar Daddy Podcast yo Learn how to make them pockets grow Financial freedom's where we go.
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