The Sugar Daddy Podcast
Ready to normalize talking about money? Then welcome to The Sugar Daddy Podcast. Every episode will get you one step closer to your financial goals. Whether that is learning how to invest, budget, save, retire early or talk about money with your partner, Jess & Brandon have you covered in a way that's easy to understand, and easy to implement. Tune in as they demystify the realm of dollars, so it all makes cents, while giving you a glimpse into their relationship with money and each other.
Brandon is an award-winning, licensed financial planner, and owner of Oak City Financial, with over a decade of experience and millions of dollars managed for his clients all over the United States.
New episodes published every Wednesday.
The Sugar Daddy Podcast
116: Five Signs You Need Financial Therapy
Most people think their money problems come from a lack of budgeting. But what if the real issue is emotional?
In this powerful episode, Jessica and Brandon sit down with Aja Evans, LMHC, a licensed financial therapist and author of Feel Good Finance, to break down 5 surprising signs you might need financial therapy.
We talk about:
- The link between money trauma and poor financial decisions
- Why budgeting alone doesn’t break bad habits
- How emotional avoidance shows up in your bank account
- What to expect in your first financial therapy session
- Aja’s personal story from stress to success
Whether you’re anxious about spending, stuck in shame about debt, or always feel like “it’s never enough,” this episode will help you understand the deeper story behind your financial behaviors.
Get Aja’s book: Feel Good Finance
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Money, relationships, and the mindset to master both. Hosted by financial advisor Brandon and his wife Jessica, The Sugar Daddy Podcast breaks down how to build wealth, unpack old money beliefs, and have real conversations about love and finances. Our mission? To help couples and individuals grow rich in every sense of the word: emotionally, relationally and financially.
You might need to take a break here, get your tissues, have a moment because this is hard work that we're doing. And it is very emotional because money is emotional. And money is emotional because people are emotional. And I think we forget that, especially with, you know, the outdated rhetoric that says money isn't emotional. It's just about numbers. And it's not. It's about your family. It's about how you were taught. It's about what they had access to and how you implement that in your life every day.
SPEAKER_00:Sugar teddy podcast, yo. Learn how to make them pockets grow. Financial freedoms where we go. Smart investments, money flow.
SPEAKER_01:Hey, babe. What are we talking about today?
SPEAKER_03:Today we are talking about a subject that keeps coming up because it's so important. And that is money and emotions. But we are now wrapping expertise around it because we we are not counselors, we are not therapists, we are not psychologists.
SPEAKER_01:Uh we are like sometimes you are. Sometimes I feel like it, even though I do not have the credentials, credentials and I do not want the credentials.
SPEAKER_03:Right. So that is why we bring on experts who actually know what they're talking about in this field. But we know that people have blocks, like emotional blocks, traumas that come with their money. And so working with a financial therapist can be a way to kind of get you into a place of actually understanding your money mindset and understanding why and how you feel about money and where that comes from so that you can work through it and hopefully release some of that so that you can make the progress that you want when it comes to your money. And so today we're really excited because we have Asia Evans with us. She is a financial therapist. We're going to be talking about all of the things we can do to unblock some of that money crud that we keep in our heads and in our minds that are keeping us from reaching our goals. So, Asia, thank you for being with us today.
SPEAKER_02:Thank you so much for having me. I'm so excited to dive in and meet you both. I feel like we've been in similar circles and close to each other and in proximity, but not able to come together. So I'm glad to talk today.
SPEAKER_03:Yay, I know. It's so funny because we often feel like you do know somebody because of, you know, the following on social media and we're always like in each other's DMs, and then you realize, oh wait, we actually haven't met. So it's so great to be together today.
SPEAKER_04:Yay.
SPEAKER_03:Well, let's get into your bio so that everybody understands who we're talking to and why we're so excited to chat with you today. Asia Evans is a licensed mental health counselor, speaker, and author, specializing in financial therapy. After experiencing her own financial awakening, which we will get into, she discovered the profound connection between money and mental health, one that too many people overlook. With 15 years of experience, Asia is dedicated to breaking the taboo around money and emotions, empowering people to have honest, transformative conversations about their finances. Her debut book, Feel Good Finance, helps readers connect their life experiences to their financial habits, offering a deeper understanding of why they spend the way they do. In addition to her private practice, Asia serves as president of the board of the Financial Therapy Association and writes Finance and Focus, a monthly newsletter for Square. A sought-after expert in her field, she has been featured in the New York Times, Business Insider, Nerd Wallet, Time, and Teen Vogue. She is on a mission to help people live their best lives by becoming more attuned to their thoughts, emotions, and behaviors around money. When she's not working, you can find Asia chasing after two young children as they embark on their latest food adventure. You might have to teach us about how you're getting your kids to be foodies because I want nothing more in life, and my kids eat like five things each.
SPEAKER_00:So if that.
SPEAKER_03:We'll do that on a different episode. Yeah, and I'm like, honestly, they're not. Oh, okay. It's your food adventure. Got it. Okay.
SPEAKER_02:We're trying, you know, we're always giving them a little bit, but they're not definitely not the foodies I aspire for them to be.
SPEAKER_03:Exactly. Okay. So we'll table that because same. Exactly. Well, Asia, you have had a financial awakening. So we want to get into that, but let's kick off with your first money memory. And if they coincide, you know, we can take it from there too. But we'd love to hear your first money memory.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. So I think my first money memory actually isn't my memory, but at this point it's like coded into my brain and it feels like it's my memory. So I just put that out there, right? Memory is so interesting and weird, and we just, it's wild. So um I think at this time, the story goes. I think I was around eight and I had gone grocery shopping with one of my friends. And thinking about that now, this is so different than the way we live now. Like when we slept over our friend's house, we were doing everything with their family. So we were going grocery shopping or going out to eat or to somebody's practice, even if it wasn't your friend, right? So different. Now I'm like, I probably would never take my own. Yeah, like you're not taking my kid in a car.
SPEAKER_03:Like, absolutely not. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:We just don't do that anymore. But growing up as an elder millennial, this is very much so the norm of what we were doing. So I was in the grocery store with a friend. I think um her mom was checking out and I had money. And at that time, spending it was the best thing you could do. So it's like, oh, I'm going to buy myself something. So I think I was buying like candy or a bag of chips or something of that nature. And what I believe that I remember was just the exchange of me like giving the money to um the cashier at the time and just, you know, doing the normal exchange, getting the change back and like moving out with my day. And my friend was like, Asia, I cannot believe you were able to go do that. I would have been so nervous. You talked to this adult, you exchanged money, all these things. Like, I can't believe you were confident enough to do that. And I was like, Well, what do you mean? Like, this is you should. You should feel okay doing this. And I just thought that was so interesting that it was something that she wouldn't ever think to do alone at that age. Um so yeah, that's my first money memory, I believe.
SPEAKER_03:So, how were you confident at the age of eight? Like, is that something that you did with your family? You know, were you often exchanging, exchanging money at the register? And was that something you were taught? Or where did that come from?
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, great question. And as I'm thinking about it now, I think um it really is about more so upbringing. So this is gonna sound tangential, but we'll get there. Both of my parents are from New York City, which matters in my story, which we'll get to and around my financial awakening. Even though I grew up in upstate New York, we were coming down to New York City very frequently. So I'm talking at least once or twice a month. So in on the weekends when I was here, I was running around Brooklyn with a pack of kids. So the same way that your auntie would say hello and slip you a little something, something, that was in the pocket for the weekend. And we were always going to the corner store. We were always getting penny cent candy. We were filling up bags, like brown paper bags filled with candy. So I didn't think about it before, but that is probably exactly where it came from. Like I was very comfortable just walking down the street to the corner store and buying. Oh my God, were those like little juicies? Remember the little juice ones? They look like little barrels.
SPEAKER_01:Yes. Right?
SPEAKER_02:What were those called? Oh my god.
SPEAKER_01:With the little squeezy, like it had no, it didn't have a squeezy, it had a uminal, yeah, aluminum.
SPEAKER_03:Okay, okay. Well, I didn't I grew up in Europe, so we weren't drinking.
SPEAKER_01:This was different.
SPEAKER_03:This is the Kool-Aid filled dye beverages. That's interesting.
SPEAKER_02:It was it was like a quarter of 50 cents, and then you would get a bag of candy. So I grew up with that experience, um, which is very common for a kid in the city, but then you go upstate to New Ustate New York, and I grew up in the city of Albany, which is where I'm from, but I was hanging out in the suburbs because that's where my school was. So now I'm like, oh, no wonder why that felt very foreign to her, but not foreign to me, because I was a bay based kid in Brooklyn. I love that.
SPEAKER_01:That's interesting though, because I didn't grow up in the city. I grew up in Raleigh, the suburbs, and we would still just ride like from my neighborhood, we would ride our bikes up to, like, you know, at the time, the car drug and buy candy there. So, you know, as kids, we would still get that interaction of buying candy on our own and um interacting with the teller, uh, with the uh cashier and stuff like that. So it's interesting that they didn't even do that in the suburbs of Albany, though.
SPEAKER_02:I mean, at least not this friend. Somebody might have been doing it, but this friend was not.
SPEAKER_03:But I think it's it's such a great call out because you have to be mindful of what, you know, it's it's something simple, but you can be taught, right? So, like even if we take our kids to mod pizza, right, for example, which they love, if we're together, I make them order their pizza. Like you need to learn how to talk to adults. What do you want on your pizza? You know? And or as they get older, I've been seeing a lot of videos of, you know, hey, now you're in high school, make your own dentist appointment. Here's what you're gonna need. Here's how you look at your calendar, here are the numbers on your insurance card. I don't know that I was taught that. I mean, maybe through like, you know, I heard it.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I don't think it was like intentional. It's just how things were.
SPEAKER_03:But I think now when everything is online, it's mobile, our kids don't really hear those conversations because we're making the appointments while they're at school. We need to be more proactive about actually teaching them how to do that. Like, here's what your insurance card looks like. Here's the, you know, here's the information they're gonna be asking you, your name, your date of birth, etc. So I love that even at such a young age, your friend realized that you have a skill that she yet she doesn't yet, assuming it was another girl. But um really interesting. I love that. I love that. Can we get into your money awakening? Because I feel like that's gonna take us into our conversation really well.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, absolutely. So I um spent my time in upstate New York, but was very comfortable in New York City. So eventually, after grad school and a ton of time in school, just in general, I finally found my way into living um in the city. And it was probably in my mid to late 20s. And at that time, I was so excited to be there. I was making$60,000, which at the time felt like an astronomical amount of money. Um, I didn't have any kids. I didn't have a husband or a boyfriend. I was not partnered in any way. It was just me living on that. And I thought that I could be able to afford everything. I thought I was making it. Um, and in New York City, you are not making it as much as you think you are on 60,000, which is very hard to believe, right? Because for a lot of people, that's it is higher than the national average of like wages and salary that people are making. But in New York, that it ain't it. It ain't it.
SPEAKER_03:Listen, it ain't it in 2025 in most places. I don't know how people are doing it. So so, so hard.
SPEAKER_02:But I thought I could do it and I did, and I was making it rain. I was sending out my laundry, I was still paying for my cars, paying my student loans. I was going out to brunch and then dinner and going shopping and going to happy hour. I was paying for a gym membership. I set my life up to be what I defined as wealthy at the time. Right. And then I was starting to just look and be like, why are my credit cards paying going away? I'm paying the minimums. What's going on? I feel like I've been paying my car forever. What's going on? My student loans aren't moving. Like, what's happening? And what was going on was that I didn't know anything about money. And I did not understand debt. I didn't understand debt to income ratio. I just didn't know. I had no real concrete financial education besides like, hey, you should save. And it was starting to bite me in the ass, honestly. And it was with a conversation that I talk about actually in the book with my cousin, who is also in like the personal finance community. And he had always loved money. And I saw him in Easter at the same relative that I was running around with. He was the cousin, one of the cousins I was running around with when I was younger. And he was like, Asia, like, why don't you just start trying to be a little bit more intentional about learning about money and just see what's going on? And once you start learning, you will start understanding more about where your money's going, where it's not going, and where you want it to be going. And that just lit a fire for me. That's when I was like, okay, I'm gonna start reading. And the information was not nearly as readily available as it is now. So I was reading random blogs, I was Googling, I was going down these holes of personal financial information, and I just fell in love. I loved it. And for a while I thought um I was gonna become a CFP and like go down that route, but that didn't feel right either. So that was the beginning of my financial awakening and starting to understand. I'm like, oh, you feel bad when you have to say no to something. You feel like your self-esteem isn't as high when you can't afford something or you're swiping on a hope and a prayer, thinking, I hope it goes through. I'll never forget. And I talk about this in the book as well. Checking my Blackberry, trying to get into my Chase account, checking my BlackBerry underneath the table during a group dinner, hoping I have enough money in my account as the woman's like walking away with like five cards to split the bill. And that anxiety, I was like, this is not how I'm meant to live. But that was all around the same time of having this financial awakening.
SPEAKER_03:Can I just say if BlackBerry like really made a comeback, I would go back to Blackberry. Let just let the record stay. I loved my Blackberry. I loved my BBM. Like, just let the record stay. Okay. Um I mean, full keyboard right there, so easy.
SPEAKER_02:Come on. Thank you. Thank you.
SPEAKER_01:I think a lot of people now forget how hard how much harder it was to access all this information around personal finance, you know, 10, 15 years ago, where like a lot of this stuff as far as being able to find podcasts, a lot more information online. This is a newer thing. So like, you know, you're really having to dig the article. I'm 42 years old, like, you know, back in, you know, 2005, 2008 time frame, like this was not a thing. It was a lot, you had to do a you had to be a lot more intentional about searching for the information.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. And there weren't a lot of people talking about it. You know, like it w it was not our age.
SPEAKER_01:No, they're all a bunch of older white people.
SPEAKER_02:Yes. So much Dave Ramsey, everywhere. He was everywhere.
SPEAKER_03:And Susie Orman.
SPEAKER_02:Yes, truly. And I I remember Business Insider was always talking about people paying off their debt. Always. They had a ton of stories about money at that time that I was always checking regularly. And I got a lot of information reading Learn Vest blogs. Like those were kind of like my two go-to places where I'm like, okay, let's get this information. And then a few other places here and there. But at that time, um, yeah, it was not easily accessible.
SPEAKER_03:So you had this conversation with your cousin. Was he able to provide any guidance of, you know, budgeting, tracking, paying more than the minimums on those credit cards? It sounds like those were kind of racking up um the, you know, the balance. Or was he just like, hey, you should start researching? And then you went and did that and just figured it out on your own? Um, that.
SPEAKER_02:And I see this because we literally had this conversation. I think at the time he had like two small kids, one on the way. Like, we were not having a sit-down conversation. This was like amongst tons of family and chaos. And he just kind of like dropped this little nugget for me, and I just was like, okay, thank you, and took it and ran. Um but yeah, it was like he did not have the time, the moment. I can't imagine in that.
SPEAKER_01:A big thing too is that I think sometimes, especially back then, we automatically assume that, for example, if we're borrowing money, student loans, credit cards, that the payments were set up in a reasonable time frame for us to pay them off. We thought that that's how it was set up.
SPEAKER_03:Right. Make the minimum and eventually it'll go away.
SPEAKER_01:That is not at all how a credit card is set up.
SPEAKER_03:No.
SPEAKER_01:Minimum payments will have you paying that balance down for like 20 years.
SPEAKER_02:Truly. And this is like a real lesson for student loans. And student loans got me more than like credit card debt at the time. Um, I still have my student loans. I'm still paying them down because my life looks very, very different than it did then. Um, and I didn't know because I really did believe. Like that, and I'm so glad that you brought that up because that's such a great point. I believe that if I paid that minimum, my student loans would be paid off in 10 years. Like I truly thought that was the case. And I hadn't like really dug into that before starting to write Feel Good Finance and talk about all the things that were coming up for me and how I felt about my debt and how it was impacting my own self-esteem or sleep or just feeling really bad about it. But you're right. Like we're we're also kind of this bill of goods, like, hey, pay the minimum and it will go away. And that's what it is. Like you'll pay it down in time and you'll be done. Not you'll pay it down for 20, 30, 40, forever. Um, and then it will go away. But no.
SPEAKER_01:I honestly believe that. So, for example, the community out there of people who didn't take out student loans or didn't go to college, so therefore obviously didn't take out student loans, are like, you know, if you took out student loans, you should pay it, it shouldn't be forgiven. They, I think they thoroughly think that at 18 years old, we were sat down and completely explained how this loan works. That is not at all the process for taking out a student loan. No one is sitting you down and talking you through all the different things that a student loan entails. And one, the student loan is the most complicated loan that there is out there. But then, like I said, no one has explained this to you at 18 years old. All you're thinking is that I need money to go to college so that I can have a better life. You go ahead and do that. And then even upon graduating, no one is explaining to you how this loan works.
SPEAKER_03:You have their grace periods, you have forbearance, you have deferment, you can also loan payments, you can all the time. And it's so much. It's so much. It's unbelievable.
SPEAKER_02:So too, like I remember there were times when and you just have no clue. I think there's a misconception that it was always before you got to college, you're sitting down and filling out your student loan information. No, no, no. You are accepted into your school, you fill that the FASFA, maybe before, but you don't always know how much money you're getting, and you don't always know how much it is going to cost. So you get a tuition bill. You're already enrolled in school, you're already thinking you're going. And in the first two weeks or so, you may still have a bill if your parents didn't either pay the whole thing or if something came up or housing cost was a little bit more. I remember sitting in those offices. Yeah. And it's pretty much like, oh, you're at school, which for me was three hours away from home. You're sitting in the registrar office and like, hey, you have an overage of XYZ money. What are you going to do? Here, you can sign up for this loan. And it is literally sign up for this loan, or you have to go home and you are not in school anymore. So yeah, I was like, okay, well, what loan is it? Okay, what? Sure.
SPEAKER_01:I distinctly remember. So before I got into finance when I first moved back to North Carolina in 2008, 2009, like, terrible time to try to find a job. I was managing a shoe store. And I remember my um assistant uh manager was a med student. And I remember him coming in, like in the middle of a shift, he was like looking extremely distraught. His student loan was an issue in regards to paying for his medical school, and like he just couldn't think straight, obviously. So I was like, you need to go home, figure this out, all that stuff. But like, like you said, you you're already enrolled in school, and it doesn't mean that it's necessarily always going to all go through properly.
SPEAKER_04:Mm-hmm.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah. And I mean, if I'm being honest, like I don't think our most parents know anything about the student loan process.
SPEAKER_01:I mean, there should be an entire My mom's the exceptional because she was in higher education.
SPEAKER_03:But there should be an entire course that students and parents can go through or should be required to go through online learning, some e-modules about what this loan means, what is it to actually pay this off, how long is it going to take you? I mean, all of those things. But aside from that, it it was very predatory back in the day. There was a lack of education for sure. And I think, you know, that's why us as elder millennials, so many of us are still carrying student loan balances, you know? And now when you look at things in comparison to, okay, maybe I have a 3% interest rate or a 6% interest rate in the grand scheme of things. Of course, we all want to get rid of these terrible loans, but it's not a high interest loan. And so for a lot of us, it's, I mean, you hear it all the time on social media like, I'm gonna take these to my grave. Like it doesn't even matter anymore, you know?
SPEAKER_01:I mean, I was I was literally reading an article yesterday talking about how thankfully they're not going to um garnish Social Security payments to pay for student loans. Now think about it. Think about you are still paying student loans and taking social social media. That should not be a thing. That is crazy.
SPEAKER_03:Absolutely absurd. Okay, let's let's move off of the student loans because we we could both easily Yeah, I know, we could stay there for forever. So you had this awakening, you started reading all the blogs, books, things that you could get your hands on. What steps did you actually take? I mean, there had to be something in between, oh my gosh, I can't continue to live like this. I'm trying to ball out of control, but this is not the reality. To hey, I wrote a finance book because I'm really good at this and now I want to help other people. What is that journey?
SPEAKER_02:A lot of life, right? A lot of life, a lot of time in between that. So I, and when I say like I was only reading money books, like I was quite literally only consuming financial education money books up until maybe I think last year. So this was a good eight years of me just reading like money books for fun. Like the same reason, the same way people are reading other books. I was like, they're like, what are you reading? I'm like, the millionaire next door. Yeah. Just reading all of these books. So it was probably about five years ago that I was thinking about it more and still loving money stuff and wanting to dive in more, and also just realizing that my clients were talking about money more frequently. Five years ago, also what there was, you know, a major global event for all of us. That was also the time I had a six-month-old. I had quit my job because I was going full-time private practice and COVID hit all like all insane time. Wow. Um and I was like, I think this is, I want to talk more about this in a a different type of way. I don't want to just kind of bring it up in passing. I want people to know that they can come to me for financial therapy to talk about. And I didn't know how to kind of put it together until I found um the Financial Therapy Association and I found Trauma of Money, and I also found the Center for Financial Social Work. And going through those trainings and having these kinds of conversations, I was like, this is actually what I want to be doing. This is where the sweet spot, this is what I want to talk to people about and have been talking to people about. I just didn't know what it was called. I didn't know this was a thing. Um, so that's when I really just shifted my practice and it shifted my whole career. At that time, you know, I didn't even know I wanted to write a book. Like I had no idea. I'm like, I don't have enough things to say about anything. How could I possibly? Um, but I'm the queen of just try. I'm the queen of, you know, throw the spaghetti at the wall, see if it sticks, see what you can do, figure it out. So I had, you know, done my website and I had hired a kind of like a blog coach, a writing coach, because I was like, I'm not a writer, I don't know what I'm talking about. I need somebody to help me make sure my grammar is okay and make sure I can put this out in public and you know, do all the right things. And I remember saying to her in passing, like, yeah, one day I think I want to write a book. I don't know where this came from. It just came out of me. I don't know. And months later, into us working together, she was like, Well, Asia, let me know when you want to write the book. And I was like, Let's do it. Again, I don't know where this came from. It just came out of my mouth. And from that point, it literally was just put one foot in front of the other. And then I was like, Okay, I have a book proposal. You know, this is months, right? People, this takes a long time. So then I was like, I have a book proposal. Okay, I'm gonna just try and send it out to 20 combination of editors, agents, um, and publishing houses and just send it to 20. And I'll know what people think about the concept, think about the book, and whether this is a yes or a very hard no. And then um Ben Bella came back and they wanted to buy the book. And then I was like, wait, I think I have a book to and I'll never forget sitting in this meeting. Um, and I still work with some of these team members now, so they can we laugh about it now. But I was in this meeting thinking they just wanted to know more about me or the book. And then I was like, oh my God, I think they are pitching me. I think this is a meeting that they are courting me. And I was like, oh my God, I did it. I'm gonna get a book deal. And that was the beginning of Feel Good Finance.
SPEAKER_03:I love that. You said a lot of things that I want to dive into, but the first thing that stuck out and that we talk about a lot on the podcast is getting help. So you said you hired a coach to help you with something that you knew was not your area of expertise. And we talk about filling the gap, paying for help. I think a lot of people have, again, we're talking about money, but have a block in paying for help, right? Whether it's a coach, somebody to make their website, somebody to actually hold their hand through the financial portfolio process, investing, saving, paying down debt, those kinds of things. Um, so I love that you called out, hey, I hired somebody to help me with this. And I'm sure, you know, correct me if I'm wrong, but wouldn't you agree that your process of getting to that book deal that you didn't even know you wanted was expedited because you had somebody helping you along the way?
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. Um, that book would have never been made without Kim. Like I and I get emotional thinking about it because it is the truth. And it's not even just getting to the point of a book proposal, but it's I had no clue. Like this is not, oh, I have a few friends in publishing and I could talk. No, that was not my story. I had not an idea, I didn't even know what a book proposal was or how to write one or what you're doing. And after that process and getting the book deal, it's also then you have to write a book. Yeah. And I needed help to just be like, how do I take these ideas that are swirling around and get them on paper in a way that's cohesive and it makes sense? Um, and there's so much work that goes into a book and so much editing, and it's hard. You're doing this for like two years. Like from signing the book deal to when the book was published, it was about two years. So it's a long time of typing away alone at home, hoping this makes sense. I I could not have done that without somebody else. So um find the right people, but pay them. Pay them. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Getting professional help is the cheat code because you don't have to waste time and money trying to figure it out on your own.
SPEAKER_03:Well, and the time that you usually waste is you're doing your own due diligence, weeding through what is real, well, like what is good advice, what is bad advice, and how do you apply it for your particular situation? So thank you for calling that out. I would love to talk about what's in feel good finance. So it's behind you, it's beautiful, it's done, you can buy it. We'll of course link it in the show notes. What's in it? Because at first you said, well, I don't even have enough to write a book, but you clearly did.
SPEAKER_02:I very much so do, and apparently have more to say. So I love it. Um so feel good finance really is what I needed in New York City when I was a 20 something, trying to understand what was going on with my money. And it's not, there are some numbers, but it really is almost like you're sitting down for with me doing. Doing financial therapy. I sound like myself. I use bad language. I make makeup stories. Like I'm just having a good time in the book. But I really wanted it to feel like for somebody who, for whatever reason, can't come see me because I can't see everybody, that you could still get to some of the core principles of financial therapy and your money story and your money baggage by reading the book. So it takes you along understanding all of the nuances and layers and the complexities of your own story, of your family's history that then create your money beliefs that then kind of show up in your life every day. So for some people, it's money avoidance. For some people, it's hoarding their money. And, you know, I go through each chapter has a few different examples with clients that I've worked with who are de-identified as you can imagine. Um, but it goes through what their stories are and what it looks like to start really having to ask those hard questions that you may not have asked yourself before.
SPEAKER_03:Are there, I would love to learn more about some of the money principles you just mentioned, but is it as I'm reading the book, are there lots of questions and prompts, maybe journaling opportunities to really have those kind of intimate moments with yourself to figure out the root cause of some of these issues?
SPEAKER_02:Yes, exactly. So um they're at each of chapter will have a reflection section, but there's also kind of like call-out boxes to just be like, hey, listen, you might need to take a break here, get your tissues, have a moment because this is hard work that we're doing. And it is very emotional because money is emotional. And money is emotional because people are emotional. And I think we forget that, especially with, you know, the outdated rhetoric that says money isn't emotional, it's just about numbers. And it's not, it's about your family, it's about how you were taught, it's about what they had access to and how you implement that in your life every day. Yeah, absolutely.
SPEAKER_01:And financial therapy is a fairly new, you know, thing. I would honestly, I would even say comprehensive financial planning is still new because I would say maybe past 25 years, if that, as far as the way that we do it now. So financial therapy is an even so much newer thing. And I think a lot of people actually that they need to start there. They need to start the financial therapy before going to see a financial advisor or financial planner.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, ideally, because I think a lot of times people have a lot of money baggage that they're not aware of. And they think by like, you know, making the money moves and talking to the advisor or the planner and getting the information, and it's great information, but what stops you from taking it? And a lot of people are sitting in front of their financial team, not taking their advice. And I know this is very hard for people like you who are dealing with it, who are like, we are talking about this constantly, and I'll talk about it with you, but what is going on? And that's where financial therapy comes up. Why is it hard for you to move that money? Why is it just sitting in a checking account? Like, what's going on? And let's dive into that. And a lot of times it's coming from very deep-rooted, very um, sometimes just sad and hard life experiences that they've had to go through, that they're like, listen, this is about my safety, and it does not feel safe to me if it's invested because it could go away. Um, so they don't move their money. I've had clients who are sitting on tens of thousands of dollars in a regular savings account. I was like, girl, no, we must move that, at least move it to a high yield. Like, I we are gonna work to get you to work with a planner and eventually move it into investments, but we cannot just have this sitting in like a regular, Degular savings account. Absolutely not.
SPEAKER_01:And I want to stress so much that, like, you know, I try my best to take into account behavioral finance and understand, you know, people's money history, money trauma, everything that comes with that. But I am nowhere near equipped to handle financial therapy as much as I would like to try to, because I've had clients that just aren't progressing and I've sat there and I've listened, you know, seen them cry, everything like that. But that I am not equipped to handle all that. Like I'm just not. And so, you know, if that's what's happening, and you're an individual, say, right, you're listening to this and you have a financial advisor and you're not taking action, maybe you need to reach out to a financial therapist. Maybe you need to reach out to Asia.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_03:Yep. Where are you? Or read the book, you know?
SPEAKER_02:Like if it feels too hard.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah. Is there an audio version of the book? Yes.
SPEAKER_02:Yep. It it there is audio. It's available. Um, I think it is through Audible. I don't know if it's on Apple Books. I have to check. I try not to check on my book too often because it, you know, it can draw. Is it a trigger? Yeah.
SPEAKER_03:Um, I'm a big um audio book person because I'm always, you know, if I'm driving or walking the dog or on the go, that's when I get my my books in. But um at what point, if somebody says, Well, how do I know if I need a financial therapist? What would you say?
SPEAKER_02:If you find yourself repeating the same old patterns that you do not want to repeat over and over and over again. And no matter what you do, no matter how you're budgeting, no matter how you're moving your money, you still are ending up in the place that you don't like. It might be time to talk to somebody like me.
SPEAKER_03:What about things like, you know, you mentioned even in your 20s in New York, right? You're starting to lose sleep, you're stressing, you're frantically checking, you know, your app under the table. I mean, I'm assuming if that's part of your day-to-day, you're losing sleep, you're avoiding opening your bills, checking on your act, you know, your actual accounts. Those are probably signs, if I had to guess, that it might be.
SPEAKER_02:You are isolating more. So you don't want to go out because you feel bad. You are drowning in shame around your money. You're just so shameful about it. And you feel like you can't, you can't hang out with your friends or that your friends don't care about you anymore. If you're like spiraling and crashing out about your money, now is the time to have those kinds of conversations or avoiding it, even though you have the money. Um, I have plenty of clients who are like, I have the money, but I never feel like I have enough. And I'm gonna just work myself to the bone. I will never have enough. You have the money, that's great, but it's still causing you stress. And I think that's something that we really need to highlight is I think there's this idea that people should go to financial therapy when they have issues with money, or a coach when you have issues with money. You can have money and have issues with money. And people like that. Right.
SPEAKER_01:That is to a degree my mother. She has plenty of money but has a hard time spending it.
SPEAKER_02:Right. And that's hard for people too. And and I talked about a little piece about this after running into a friend's dad who was preparing for um retirement. And he's like, Asia, you mean that I've been working for 30, 35 years, squirreling away this money, saving it, investing it, building this beautiful nesting. And now I'm just supposed to stop adding to it and now I'm supposed to spend it. He could not wrap his head around this. And I'm like, yeah, this is what you've spent your whole life working towards. It's your moment. Let's enjoy it. So you have to learn to, yes, save your money, invest your money, but you also need to learn to spend it. And that can also be very difficult for people.
SPEAKER_03:Yes.
SPEAKER_01:It becomes an identity. It becomes their identity. And so it's so hard for them to change because honestly, I think so, like with our parents' generation, I don't think they actually thought through what they wanted their retirement to look like. It was this big goal that everybody talked about that you saved to get to, but they never actually thought, like, hey, what do I actually want to do when I get there? What do what do I want that to look like?
SPEAKER_03:Yeah. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Where I feel like we are all like, I can't wait to get there.
SPEAKER_03:I've got a crystal clear plan. Crystal clear. Listen, I know where I want to be Tuesday at 10 a.m. Um, it's so true. I love that you're calling out. You can have plenty of money and still have blockers and still have issues. It's not a I only see broke people, right? Or I only see people who have debt. So I think that was a great call out. Thank you. Um, if somebody's thinking about working with you or work, you know, working with somebody like you, what um can you walk us through maybe the first couple of sessions? What would it look like? What does it sound like? Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:So, first, with any kind of therapist, this is going to be important. Like you have to get the right person, right? You have to get the right fit for you. And that would be anybody you're working with, even a doctor, a CFP, anybody. You want the right fit. So I have a very particular personality. I have a very particular vibe. And it's not the vibe for everybody, but I want to make sure that you find who works for you, right? So that's going to be the first thing. So when you're finding them, you know, poke around, look at their stuff to get see what's going on and see if it jives a little bit for you. And then once you have your consultation, you dive in, you're meeting for the first time. For me, I want two things to happen during our first few sessions. Either you have been waiting for this appointment and you've got burning things that you feel like you need to get off your chest. I want you to just word vomit them to me. And that's okay for me. People like, I'm sorry, I'm all over the place. Do not worry about it. I can keep up. If I can't, I will ask you to clarify. Um, but get it off your chest because that's also part of what we're doing too. Like, you don't need to hold this by yourself. I'm here to also support you and hold it as well. And for some people, that's very easy. For other people, it can be very hard, and that's okay. I also don't mind asking questions about your life. And that's where I'm really also starting the process, too, of hey, what was your first money memory? What did growing up look like with money? What does money look like right now? How are you feeling about it? Like, walk me through and download almost like your money autobiography to me from as early as you remember to right now. Like, walk me through your whole life. And what I'm doing during that time is trying to pull out patterns of how you either think about money, what your money beliefs might be, narratives that you continuously tell yourself, and then figure out if those narratives are now playing a part and impacting your money either in a healthy, positive way or in a way that you don't like where you're at right now.
SPEAKER_03:Do you talk about the goals from a monetary standpoint? Like this is, I want to get rid of this debt and I want to save and invest this much by this time. And then you actually go into the numbers and start processing that way. Or is it more um the feelings around money? I want to feel, you know, safe, secure, able to spend, whatever that might be.
SPEAKER_02:Can you talk us through how you actually so it's um it's a little bit of both, I would say. And I think for some people who are really smart and like to intellectualize their emotions, it's very easy to come in hot and heavy with numbers. Um, they feel confident in the numbers, they've looked at the numbers, they know the numbers by heart. Asia, you look at the numbers. I'm like, I'll look at the numbers, but this is not a numbers issue. Um so I want to know about goals, but first I kind of do need to know like where is the issue, right? Um, and that's the harder part about therapy is to identify what the issue is, identify what the maladaptive patterns are, or um, identify what you want. You would be so shocked how many people really struggle to name what they want. And I will ask eventually, like it's not the first session.
SPEAKER_01:I'm not surprised at all.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. Right? See, this is it. When you start working with people, I'm like, people really don't know what they want. I'm like, well, what do you want? And they're like, oh my God. And then the tears come, they're uncomfortable. I'm like, oh no, I'm so sorry. But like, this is where we got to get to first.
SPEAKER_01:I think it's so hard because we're inundated with so many things on a daily basis that a lot of people haven't just taken time to think about one by themselves, what they want, what their goals, how they want their life to look in the future, or you know, between a couple, like, what do we want our life to look like? I mean, I can tell you time after time, majority of people I sit down with when we're talking about becoming work optional. Um, well, it's like, what do you want that to look like? They're like, I have no idea. I'm like, so we're going to work right now, you know, 40 plus hours a week, and you have no idea, you know, working towards quote unquote this goal of being not able to work, and you have no idea what you're gonna do once you reach that goal.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. And that's really hard for people. So we do get there eventually. Um, what what do you want? How to, especially when we're starting to talk about budgets, because I do look at my numbers with my clients and look at their numbers if they want me to. Um, so sometimes it's like, hey, Asia, I've been avoiding my account. I'm like, okay, let's pull it up together right now. Like, pull it up, get the phone out, get whatever you're gonna use. Let's do it right now. And I'll take notes and be like, okay, this is how much you're telling me is in your account. This is how much money you're telling me is that you owe. Do you know? Um, and getting what I call financially naked, like really looking at all of the numbers. What's your income? What's your debt look like? Loans, retirement. And now let's start talking about your goals and let's talk about building your budget if you need one. Um, and then it's kind of interspersing hey, emotionally, this is what's coming up for me. I'm uncomfortable. This is hard for me. I'm avoiding it. And I'll say, and they my clients know me at this point. We have a good rapport, and I'm a little spiced and like, you do know you're avoiding this, right? And they're like, I know, Asia, I know.
SPEAKER_03:Like, and this is therapy, so I'm gonna tell you.
SPEAKER_01:Numbers are the easiest part. Like, people always people always say to me, like, you know, oh, you're a financial planner, you must be good with numbers. I'm good with numbers, but that's not the bulk of what I do. That is the easy part. If it was just simply numbers, yeah, my job would be a breeze.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, it's people. People are hard and we're complex and we want to believe that we're not nearly as emotional as we are, but we are, and it is very vulnerable and hard to start opening that part of yourself up to somebody else, to be like, I actually don't know what I want. I've been putting one foot in front of the other and I don't know what I want. And why? Like, why don't I know?
SPEAKER_01:I think, I think, especially for people that, you know, maybe are, you know, quote unquote smarter, have higher, you know, education, more degrees, stuff like that. It's harder for them to just simply say, I don't know something, because I feel like it's still in our society frowned upon to not know stuff when there's so much information out there. There's no way you can know it all. And then also, especially when it comes to the finance aspect, we're not taught this. Like you could be a doctor, you could be an attorney. In all those years of schooling, nothing was around finances.
SPEAKER_03:Right.
unknown:Yeah.
SPEAKER_03:And if you weren't taught at home, I mean, it comes up a lot on our calls with guests. Like, yeah, most people were taught save your money, don't spend more than you have. And then that's kind of where it stops, you know? So, how are we supposed to navigate life in our 20s and not make these pretty big financial decisions, in many cases, mistakes, and then come out on the other side when we didn't have any guidance, we didn't have any knowledge, you know? So it we all have our own stories of having to learn the hard way. And so, you know, eliminating or working through that shame and guilt that really came from a place in a space where we weren't taught. And how, how were we supposed to know? And how should we have navigated it better when we didn't have anybody to hold our hand through it? So it's so nice that we have resources like you, people like you who are now combining finance and therapy because we need it. You know, people need it. They need to have those breakthroughs, those awakenings like you had, where it's I don't have to stay stuck. I don't have to be in this place. And more importantly, I don't have to do it alone. I don't have to figure it out alone. There are people and resources and books and uh, you know, big online communities now where you can have your hand held, find the support and get the one-on-one attention that people need. So this is so wonderful.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. And just ask, right? Like I think to your point, like it's hard to say, I don't know, but it's also hard to ask for help. And I want people to know that they don't have to just be suffering in silence, torturing themselves because they feel like they should have known. Okay, you should have. Okay, hang on.
SPEAKER_01:You don't get any extra points for doing it by yourself.
SPEAKER_03:No, no.
SPEAKER_01:It just often takes longer and it's harder.
SPEAKER_03:For no reason. We're here. Yeah. Asia, where can people find you? Where can they buy your book? Um, and if today's conversation resonated and they like the vibe, um, where can they potentially reach out? I'm assuming you take, you know, clients from all over.
SPEAKER_02:Yes. So I have a few client slots left. I'll be honest, it's now ten. Um, but I do have a few left. But you can find me on IG at Asiaetherapy, AJ A E Therapy, um, or at my website, AsiaEvansCounseling.com. Um, and you can always shoot me uh email at helloasiaevanscounseling.com as well. So I'm here. You can get my book wherever books are sold. I'm always gonna support local bookshops because I want them to stay in business. I think they're very important for our communities. So um shop local if you can, but it is also at the bigger box stores if that feels easier and more accessible to you.
SPEAKER_03:Perfect. Well, we will link everything. Find Feel Good Finance at your local community bookstore, maybe even your library. We need to support the libraries as well. Love a good library stop on a Sunday. Um, Asia, thank you for being with us and for sharing your story and your insights and for hopefully, you know, continuing to open up the conversation about financial therapy and that you don't have to go at it alone. So thank you for being with us today.
SPEAKER_02:Absolutely, thank you for having me.
SPEAKER_03:Don't forget, Benjamin Franklin said, an investment in knowledge pays the best interest. You just got paid. Until next time.
SPEAKER_00:Sugar Daddy Podcast go. Learn how to make the pockets grow. Find new freedom, five week flow. Smart investments, money flow.
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